Flurry of Blows + Two Weapon Fighting?

[borc killer]

Note that since "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed", a monk can't use TWF for extra attacks unless he's wielding weapons. And he can only Flurry unarmed or with special monk weapons.

Therefore you can only combine extra attacks from TWF with extra attacks from Flurry of Blows while wielding special monk weapons.
-Hyp.

Maybe I am missing something but... doesn't Improved Unarmed Strike cause your whole body to be a weapon? And therefore you would not need any kind of weapon in your ‘off” hand to use TWF? "You are considered to be armed even when unarmed" (PHB pg 96).

Main reason I ask is I was going to take TWF as my next feat for my *cough*flying*cough* Rogue/Fighter/Shuo Disciple and wanted to make sure it worked the way I think I does.

Borc Killer

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

FWIW, here's the answer I got from the Sage when I asked this question six months ago.

Edit: I thought it had been published in "Sage Advice", but I can't find it in the FAQ, and I'm 600 miles from my Dragon Mags right now. Anyway, here's the email:

<< Can a monk use Two-Weapon Fighting (or Improved Two Weapon Fighting) in conjunction with Flurry of Blows to gain an extra attack, >>


No.

>>or to reduce the penalties for the Flurry of Blows?>>


No.

<< I'm fairly certain the spirit of the rules didn't intend for these abilities to work together, but I can't find anything in the rules that would prohibit it >>

When you use a flurry, you can use a specil monk weapon once as part the flurry. If you use two weapons with a flurry, you use each weapon once as part of the flurry (a quaterstaff is a double weapon and counts as two weapons). You do not get an extra attack for the second weaoon, nor do you suffer any of the usual penalties for attaking with two weapons.

A monk can fight with two weapons and use the varius two-wepoan fighting feats, but the number of attacks the monk gets is based on the monk's normal base attack bonus and number of attacks, not on the monk's number of attacks in a flurry.

 

[Scion]

Not terribly relevant, but over the course of 3.5 coming out I am getting sick of viable, but not overpowered, options being nerfed or killed.

stacking of improved crit and keen, numerically inferior over most ranges, but nerfed because someone said, 'I think that this shouldnt be done, it looks too powerful'.

and this, with an option that takes a lot of feats and work to get right, and still is only interesting as an option for some characters.. definately not overpowered..

changing something that is overpowered is ok the vast majority of the time, killing something that is interesting and not overpowered just seems.. bad..

minor rant I know.. sorry all..

 

[Hypersmurf]

Maybe I am missing something but... doesn't Improved Unarmed Strike cause your whole body to be a weapon? And therefore you would not need any kind of weapon in your ‘off” hand to use TWF? "You are considered to be armed even when unarmed" (PHB pg 96).

Except the TWF feats allow you to make extra attacks with an off-hand weapon. If there's no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed, he is incapable of taking advantage of those feats, since he doesn't have an off-hand weapon.

If he's not striking unarmed, that no longer applies.

When you use a flurry, you can use a specil monk weapon once as part the flurry. If you use two weapons with a flurry, you use each weapon once as part of the flurry (a quaterstaff is a double weapon and counts as two weapons).

When you use a flurry, you can use a special monk weapon as many times as you bloody like as part of the flurry! It's not limited to once.

What is he on about?

-Hyp.

 

[Errant]

Except the TWF feats allow you to make extra attacks with an off-hand weapon. If there's no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed, he is incapable of taking advantage of those feats, since he doesn't have an off-hand weapon.

Thats why I quoted the Two Weapon Fighting section above. If An unarmed strike is always considered light, it seems arguable that an unarmed attack should be considered a viable "off-hand weapon".

[Edit - Tidied formatting]

 

[Hypersmurf]

Thats why I quoted the Two Weapon Fighting section above. If An unarmed strike is always considered light, it seems arguable that an unarmed attack should be considered a viable "off-hand weapon".

Oh, it is, absolutely.

... unless you're a monk, since there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.

-Hyp.

 

[Errant]

... unless you're a monk, since there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.

Ah, now I get your point.

But I still think the context of the section you're quoting is better interpreted as exempting their attacks from the Strength bonus description that states "Off-hand attacks receive only one-half the character’s Strength bonus".

IMHO it logically makes sense that since a monk can strike equally well with fists, elbows, knees & feet (etc) they should get the same Strength bonus to all their unarmed attacks.

Likewise, since "a monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon ..." & they're described as light weapons etc, it seems illogical to eliminate regarding two weapon fighting.

I guess I'm happy enough that the TWF isn't overpowered (thanks partly to your other comments) not to be picky about whether or not they can include unarmed attacks.

 

[borc killer]

Except the TWF feats allow you to make extra attacks with an off-hand weapon. If there's no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed, he is incapable of taking advantage of those feats, since he doesn't have an off-hand weapon.
-Hyp.

K i see your point now. Thanks!

Borc Killer