Fly Skill

[mmu1]

OR ... If you really want to get "Particular" you could base the racial Tumble bonus on Maneuverability class.

Clumsy +0
Poor +2
Average +4
Good +8
Perfect +12

You either need to at least have the +0 apply to Average maneuverability, and have the modifiers go up and down from there, or (IMO) have a +0 modifier for Perfect maneuverability and penalties for every other one (although maybe not as steep, more like -1, -2, -4, -8).

Creatures with Perfect maneuverability only move in air with as much easy as humans do when walking, last time I checked humans don't get automatic Tumble bonuses for being able to walk without conscious effort.

 

[Khaalis]

Originally posted by mmu1
Creatures with Perfect maneuverability only move in air with as much easy as humans do when walking, last time I checked humans don't get automatic Tumble bonuses for being able to walk without conscious effort.

I disagree with this.

Fly: The creature can fly at the given speed if carrying no more than a medium load. All Fly speeds include a parenthetical not indicating maneuverability.

Perfect: The creature can perform nearly any aerial maneuver it wishes. It moves through the air as well as a human does over smooth ground.

Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability.

Average: The creature can fly as adriotly as a small bird.


Now when I read and interpret this, I see the maneuverability rating as a rating of Agility, and more specifically the ability to alter direction.

Thus the statement that a "Perfect" flier "can move through the air as well as a human does over smooth ground" means they can turn on a dime including pulling any angled turn all the way to 360 degree turns in one spot where a normal "flier" or bird cant do that. It would also include hovering which a "Good" maneuverability can also do (humingbird) but no other flyer can.

As it says "The creature can perform nearly any aerial maneuver it wishes." which to me means it is incredibly agile in the Air.

A Human cannot do "any land maneuver it wishes" without the need for a Tumble or Balance skill check. A Human with "Pefect" movement would never need make a Balance or Tumble check "over smooth ground".

A Flier that has average maneuverability would follow the same rules as anyone on the ground when it comes to avoiding hazards. They should have an "Average" skill check for such things, thus the +0. Just like ground-pounders get no bonus to phyical skill checks. You can take feats to make you more agile and "Acrobatic" (thus gaining bonuses to skills such as Balance and Tumble, which bring you closer to being "Perfect" in your motion.

So overall it would go (With Average at 0):
Clumsy -8 (or -4 if you want to be easy on them)
Poor -4 (or -2 if you want to be easy on them)
Average +0
Good +4
Perfect +8

Just my interpretation of the rules the way I see them making the most sense. A Perfect Flier can litteraly fly circles around anything - Air or Land based, and deserve the same +8 Skill Bonus that creatures with a Swim Movement rate get to Swimming skill checks.

 

[Andion Isurand]

Even for land manuvers, there are feats like....

charging feats... especially the one that lets you make a 90° turn half way through your charge
the manitis leap jump attack feat
shot on the run, spring attack feats
the run feat

etc. etc.

 

[Khorod]

Not sure about adding a Fly skill, but in addition to Swim for aquatic creatures, the walking folk have Balance.

 

[Khaalis]

And these arguments are exactly why I said I dont personally like the idea of a "Fly" skill, but I do think that "Tumble" is the appropriate "Maneuver" skill for Fliers vs. Swim for Swimmers, and Tumble/Balance for landers, and the +8 to Tumble for "Perfect" flyers to equate to the Swim ability.

Especially since there are very few "Perfect" flyers.

 

[Anabstercorian]

use Balance, not tumble. Tumble is used for so many things already...

 

[mmu1]

"A Flier that has average maneuverability would follow the same rules as anyone on the ground when it comes to avoiding hazards. They should have an "Average" skill check for such things, thus the +0. Just like ground-pounders get no bonus to phyical skill checks. You can take feats to make you more agile and "Acrobatic" (thus gaining bonuses to skills such as Balance and Tumble, which bring you closer to being "Perfect" in your motion."

That's completely incorrect. Fliers with Average maneuverability have massive restrictions on how they can move in both two and three dimensions - they can't hover, can't fly backwards, need to move with a minimum forward speed or they'll stall, can't climb vertically...

How is this comparable to a human walking in two dimensions? A human walking can stop in place, turn on a dime, make any change of direction, back up, side-step, etc. A flyer with Average maneuverability can't do any of this, mainly because it always need to keep moving forward, which should translate into a pretty hefty penalty.

On the other hand, a Perfect flier doesn't have to worry about any of this, and gets to make, for example, Tumble checks for avoiding AAO's unimpeded... By that doesn't mean it should have a huge bonus.

Saying that they need the +8 because swimmers get it is trying to compare different mechanics... They gave that +8 to natural swimmers not because of maneuverability issues, but because a lot of them can't breathe under water, and they wanted to make sure they wouldn't start drowning left and right.