Flying off the shelves!

[Malin Genie]

This has been a really interesting thread to read.

For me, I live in a city of 400,000 or so. There is one game store that stocks DnD products - on one bookshelf of a huge store almost entirely dedicated to modelling (with a small concession to WWII wargamers, else mostly model cars/boats/planes/etc) None of the people there know anything about DnD, d20, non-d20 RPG products, and they stock strictly mainstream.

OTOH two hours' drive away there is a store which before I moved I visited regularly, know the people, will happily order in for me (over the phone, without asking for pre-payment,) they know the product, and are friendly and helpful. They have introduced me to a number of games and have semi-regular games' nights. They have expert model-painters who will give tips for free or take commissions for that special figure.

I will any day of the week visit my Friendly Not-so-local LGS over my Local not-so-Friendly.

I visit the larger city about once/month. I will generally be willing to wait that time, and catch up on all my browsing and purchasing at once, rather than think 'I must have it the moment it comes out."

To me it's a matter of smaller stores allowing you to form a relationship. My butcher will order in fresh rabbit, or bone and trim a shoulder and reserve the trimmings for me. I will also buy my steak from him even at a dollar or two/kilo more than supermarket prices; I see it as a reciprocal thing.

To browse for hours, play new games, chat with knowledgeable staff and then walk out and buy the Core Books online strikes me as disrespectful at the very least. Of course, if your LGS isn't friendly, IMHO you don't need to accord them any respect just for the fact that they're a local small business. If in the face of competitors discounting heavily they don't discount at all even for regular customers they aren't really showing much respect for you - but as TC noted, they may well no be able to absorb losses. so don't assume that they aren't trying.

I suppose this was a long ramble, but in summary - if you have a knowledgeable, friendly LGS; cherish it. There are too few of them.

 

[Mark]

*snip*

Whoa, whoa, whoa, brother, man. No need to assume you know what I mean when I can simply tell you myself.

My point about sales figures showing we are not representational of D&D players/consumers refers to a million D&D core books being sold and a mere fraction of that number of consumers being part of this community. Those of us who are (you, I, and a number of others) might, like you, say we feel comfortable speaking for the other gamers we know from our gaming groups (not I, though) but even if we do speak for them that still represents a mere fraction. I don't think that anyone could say with any certainty that we as a community speak as representational of D&D players (or further, gamers) as a whole. We are simply too small in number to safely say we represent in microcosm the great number of gamers that exist.

Taken a step further, that (much greater) number of people that have purchased the D&D core books but are not part of this community do not, as we do, access all of the information either because they cannot, they do not have time, they do not wish to do so, or any other number of reasons. In that way the small fraction that is the EN World community (and if we are as comfortable as you say you are, our extended community but still small fraction through our gaming groups) are vastly more informed regarding the wide array of third party/d20 publisher products than that huge fraction that purchased the core D&D books.

That's how the sales figures (without even quoting specific numbers) support the idea that we as a community are not representational of D&D players (and further, gamers) as a whole.

Originally posted by Vocenoctum
I almost miss being uninformed

I understand. It's a strange and interesting time, isn't it?

 

[hunter1828]

1. There are plenty of game stores that have online stores as well. I'm one, heck there's probably at least a hundred. I've shipped internationally and at this point all 50 states.

But do they offer the same discounts, the same service, and the same super fast delivery? I have ordered from several online game stores in years past and NEVER recieved the same item for the same value for the same quality service as I get from Amazon.

2. What would be the point? Amazon is practically selling the books at cost just so they can get the sales. Amazon loses millions of dollars a year so they can pull that off. I would guess that their hope is to run all the other bookstores out so everyone has to buy through them.

Well, actually...Amazon only posted a slight net loss for the Q1 this year and that loss was MUCH lower than some forecasters had expected it to be. Still, their revenues were up yet again. And this comes after Amazon posted a net gain for Q4 2002. So, all in all I think Amazon is pulling it together and will soon be running in the black darn near as often as realistic. But that's a highly unprofessional opinion from someone that simply watches a lot of business news.

It's not just small press you're supporting by shopping with specialty stores. You're supporting gaming as a whole. You're supporting the chance for a company to produce a cool, hot new product. You're supporting the chance for a kid to be awakened to excitement of role playing games. You're supporting a chance for players without games to find other players.

See, I don't buy that. The reason I don't buy that is in the 25 years I have been gaming I and no one I game with have ever depended on a game store to find a game. We all always managed to find one another just fine. I have also never gamed in a game store and no one I game with has ever gamed in a game store. And the one and only time I ever advertised for a new player it was a guy that found my sign at, get this, Wal-Mart, not the FLGS, that joined up.

Believe me, I understand many gaming stores suck. It's part of the motivation that led me to open my own store. However, there are tons of great speciality stores online that also support gaming as a whole. This isn't a plea for my store but for our hobby. Don't let it get ground up in the machinations of massive discounters.

~Derek

It's not that my FLGS sucks...it's that I don't HAVE one.

Oh, by the way. If discounting is such a bad thing, why is your store discounting 3.5 books 25%?

hunter1828

 

[Gargoyle]

This isn't going to happen I'm afraid. As I've said before most make their bread and butter money on the best seller, main stream WotC products. If they're not going to be able to sell those then they don't have the money to pay rent *and* carry smaller press books. Next thing you know the FLGS is gone or is selling Warhammer exclusively.

~D

So basically, you're saying FLGS's are doomed, and there is nothing anyone can do about it?

 

[TalonComics]

But do they offer the same discounts, the same service, and the same super fast delivery? I have ordered from several online game stores in years past and NEVER recieved the same item for the same value for the same quality service as I get from Amazon.

Probably not but you never know. I doubt most game stores can afford to hire on the employees Amazon does. Amazon, for all intent and purposes, is the Wal-Mart of the internet. That's what they do.

See, I don't buy that. The reason I don't buy that is in the 25 years I have been gaming I and no one I game with have ever depended on a game store to find a game. We all always managed to find one another just fine. I have also never gamed in a game store and no one I game with has ever gamed in a game store. And the one and only time I ever advertised for a new player it was a guy that found my sign at, get this, Wal-Mart, not the FLGS, that joined up.
It's not that my FLGS sucks...it's that I don't HAVE one.

I've never said everyone has benefitted from having a local gaming store. I would gather living in North Dakota is probably similar to when I lived in Nebraska. There wasn't a gaming store in my home town either. Heck, you couldn't even buy games at all in the town I lived in. All the games I owned I purchased when I visited Texas. When you're a gamer living remotely you just do the best you can.
I understand you're just doing what you can do to game. I do wish though everyone had the chance to have a real gaming store around them. It makes a world of difference.

Oh, by the way. If discounting is such a bad thing, why is your store discounting 3.5 books 25%?

I'm not against discounting I'm against "massive discounting" because it damages local businesses and hobbies. Doesn't anyone else find it odd that people are complaining about places selling books for their suggested retail price?
Anyway, I'm discounting the core books mainly because I wanted to pass on some kind of savings to my fellow gamers. I already sell all my gaming books at 15% off so an extra 10% is just an extra bonus. I'm doing the same thing with Arcana Unearthed and adding an extra discount.

~D

 

[TalonComics]

So basically, you're saying FLGS's are doomed, and there is nothing anyone can do about it?

No, I'm saying if everyone only buys their gaming books from massive discounters instead of places that actually support gaming as a hobby then our hobby as we know it will go away.

Think about this: TSR went out of business and AD&D was no more. TSR was then bought by a small company that had the money to do so because of a game they made called Magic: the Gathering. M:tG took off and sold well because of a grass roots introduction to gamers by FLGSs all over the country. After M:tG achieved massive popularity from a local level, WotC was able to sell it to places like Wal-Mart and mainstream bookstores. M:tG isn't as popular as it use to be but it's still around.
My point though is that without FLGSs a small WotC wouldn't have had an outlet for their fledgling product and then wouldn't have had the opportunity to buy TSR. Without that, there's a great chance D&D3E wouldn't even exist at all today.

Whether I continue to own a gaming store in the future or not I don't want to see speciality gaming stores go away. They make a major difference in our hobby and if they go away I think our hobby will become extremely crippled.

~D

 

[Pbartender]

Well...

I have the enviable position of having a good half dozen gaming stores with an hour's drive of where I live. Most of them I won't go to, because, as Derek puts it, they suck... Small stock, except for card games and war games, extremely Unknowledgable employees, fairly unfriendly and/or elitist employees, so on and so forth.

At the same time, I find it extraordinarily difficult to buy my gaming product from any major department store. I can't explain it, but it just doesn't feel right. Maybe I just have too many fond memories of hanging out in the FLGS back home when I was in high school.

So, right now my dilemma is whether to order Talon Comics, save a few bucks and get the books a week late, or... Make a drive over to Games Plus (which is suspiciously close to the local Ikea, which we need to make a shopping trip to this summer anyway) on release day, and get them ASAP (in time for my birthday!).

Sorry, Derek, but I'm leaning toward Games Plus... Especially since I'm missing the Chicago Game Day this summer.

Really... In the long run, saving $30 on those books is not a big deal. All that means is that I have to not order pizza twice (or not drink two cans of soda every day, or not buy that new computer game, or not buy two DVDs, or not buy a case or two of beer, etc...) in the next month.

 

[Corinth]

I'm utterly unconcerned by it all. The LGS of the world can adapt or die for all I care; the hobby will live on--thrive even--with or without them. My LGS does this, which is (a) why it's the best in the Twin Cities--The Source Comics & Games--and (b) why I've naught but love for it.

 

[jasper]

Yeah right Walmart will edit my PB. Hmm on the selection comment. They have some of the top 40 more like top 20. But I still unable to find an Andy Griffin comedy choice. And occasionally I see a Bill Cosby. So except for SteamRoller and the Classic music collections I forced to shop elsewhere.
Does Walmart have the power to edit music? Yes only because the music companies have decide to roll over and edit their singers content. Humm okay I will give you that argument.

All LHS no matter if gaming, model trains, wargaming etc need to be aware they are in a very niche market and that market have a very slim profit margin. So you the customers need to quit taking the five finger discount. The owners and staff need to work on customer service.

Good example in 1982 Ft Devens Mass. The LHS had everything from wargames, board games, rpg and the support items. And he was willing to special order and hold to payday.

Current FLHS hmm let say I will be getting a subscription to Nodwick and related books. Also I an old gamer so I know my few purchases will not help him. But too many excuses etc means my money goes else where.

In fact the local train store lost $15 Saturday. They no longer take checks due the owner has not decide where to stay in business. Not due to customers but his staff mess up. He is not restocking, only open on Saturday, and the cashier knows nothing. Plus the price mark up. Example a passenger car set called the Broadway limited lists from the manufacture at $124 for a 4 car pack or $168 for six car pack with shipping. His price per car is $99. At first I thought the price was G scale (garden/outside size) not O scale (Lionel).

Now my hobby dollar is moving from the SCA and D&D to trains. Why? Expense is one since it takes me $40 plus gas to go to an event. Second lack of regular players, what do you do when only 1 guy shows up to game. Third a new hobby equal wiliness to spend money in new hobby vs old hobby. I just wish I was 18 and in Army now. The LFHS would be getting a lot of my money due to the number of choices now.

Also I have purchased RPG items in Toys –R- Us, Barnes and Nobles, B Dalton, Walden Books and some small toy stores. Now the selection was small but unless the item is best seller, retailers are not going to stock the low rollovers when they can sell dozens of Harry Potter items at the same time. So the LHS should, if they can, try to work with the managers of big chains to see if they could get the word out that why BIG EVIL WALMART does not carry dice, Bill hole in wall store does.

 

[drothgery]

I'm not against discounting I'm against "massive discounting" because it damages local businesses and hobbies. Doesn't anyone else find it odd that people are complaining about places selling books for their suggested retail price?

No. People complain about others driving at the posted speed limit all the time, which is quite similar in principle.