Flying off the shelves!

[Gargoyle]

So basically, you're saying FLGS's are doomed, and there is nothing anyone can do about it?

No, I'm saying if everyone only buys their gaming books from massive discounters instead of places that actually support gaming as a hobby then our hobby as we know it will go away.

You can't change the behavior of consumers by admonishing them to do what's best for the industry. As a consumer, I'll always strive to pay less and get the most value for my buck, as long as it is convenient enough. If you're attempting to influence the behavior of the market by imploring them to do what's right for the hobby, then your attempt will fail. That's why your post seemed like pointless ranting to me (although there is nothing wrong with that now and then..), and why it comes off as self-serving to some. (I know it's not meant to be, I love this industry too, and I share your concerns.)

Think about this: TSR went out of business and AD&D was no more. TSR was then bought by a small company that had the money to do so because of a game they made called Magic: the Gathering. M:tG took off and sold well because of a grass roots introduction to gamers by FLGSs all over the country. After M:tG achieved massive popularity from a local level, WotC was able to sell it to places like Wal-Mart and mainstream bookstores. M:tG isn't as popular as it use to be but it's still around.
My point though is that without FLGSs a small WotC wouldn't have had an outlet for their fledgling product and then wouldn't have had the opportunity to buy TSR. Without that, there's a great chance D&D3E wouldn't even exist at all today.

That's very hypothetical, and your scenario ignores the fact that FLGS's also depend on publishers. I think it's clear that FLGS's and publishers have a symbiotic relationship. Without good products to sell, FLGS's are at a disadvantage. Without a good way to bring products to market, the publishers are at a disadvantage.

But I've heard many FLGS owners say that if MtG didn't come along, they would have went out of business. Without FLGS's, I think WOTC would have sold MtG at cons, book stores, software stores, toy stores, and comic book only stores, and some FLGS's would have emerged to sell the product. There are many ways to sell your product, even without the Internet. It's just cheaper and easier if you can distribute it through FLGS's.

Whether I continue to own a gaming store in the future or not I don't want to see speciality gaming stores go away. They make a major difference in our hobby and if they go away I think our hobby will become extremely crippled.

~D

No one who loves gaming wants to see FLGS's disappear (just the UFLGS's ).

I agree that they make a major difference, especially in the long term. Introducing new players to the hobby, provding a place to play, etc. The only people who can really do anything about it, however, are the FLGSs and game publishers. Amazon doesn't care and neither do the consumers. (Even if a few consumers do care, it won't be enough; the market as a whole wants the best deal.)

FLGS's need to find ways to be more competitive. They need to be knowledgeable about gaming products, they need to be friendly, they need to provide a place to play, and they need to host events. They need to have a great selection. Most FLGS's are responsible for their own failures. Some are doing all this and have survived.

Game publishers need to avoid undercutting FLGS's with steeply discounted direct sales via the Internet.

Both FLGS's and publishers need to get together more and talk about how they can get customers in the stores on a regular basis. (Like we're doing right now) We need to make it so that FLGS's don't merely survive; they need to prosper.

But I don't have all the answers, of course. As a retailer, what do you think small publishers can do to help FLGS's? Maybe there isn't much I can do, but if enough small publishers make an effort, it could mean something. Larger publishers should help too, but as you've implied, the reality is that they don't need FLGS's as much as small publishers, so they don't have as big a stake.

 

[green slime]

At one stage, this little town (400,000) had two different LGS, both of which were staffed by nice people, gamers who cared for the hobby.

Then another one moved in, got a central place right in the main shopping area (the other smaller outlets where a bit off the beaten track), and dumped the prices. To drive out the competition. Which succeeded. (Came from larger city, where they were the sole supplier).

So after driving out the local competition, the prices sky-rocketted. Of course back then, there was no internet. A while later, a couple of guys who had themselves on Unemployment Benefits, started another seperate shop, and as they already had a secure income, dumped the prices. Unfortunately for them (and the impoverished gamers) the other shop had been so successful, it's owner (via another company) had the sole right to import/supply mainstream stock of successful brands.

Locally, other people have tried to wrestle themselves in a piece of turf, but they end up going under in a price war, which the big guy can't loose.

So today we pay 25%+ higher price than you guys in the states (given the present strength of the dollar), or... order it from Amazon. So now the big guy feels the squeeze from someone even bigger. Considering the aggressive, no-holds barred strategy employed by the owner, should I feel any sympathy? Preferably I'd order from Derek, but the accursed customs people force Duties and taxes upon those imports. So Amazon.co.uk it is.

So those $30 I save today, could cost a whole lot more tomorrow. On the other hand, Been there, done that. A bird in the hand, and all that.

 

[Desdichado]

I'm not sure I buy the idea that we aren't representative of gamers as a whole. Sure, we're not the entire population of gamers, but we are several thousand folks (counting lurkers and the like) and if we're not representative, then all of our statistical principles are probably invalid.

The only way we may not be a valid sampling of the population is that we are probably better informed, and thus can form opinions based on a lot more information than your average Joe Gamer.

 

[Mark]

The only way we may not be a valid sampling of the population is that we are probably better informed, and thus can form opinions based on a lot more information than your average Joe Gamer.

It's not the only way but it is the one important to the point I am making. So despite your expression of disagreement, you've managed to leave room to completely agree with me.

Regarding the statistical principles you mention, I hope you do not mean the polls we make here. Those might bear some resemblance to a sampling of this community but cannot be extrapolated to engender the opinion of D&D gamers in general. Not even EN World's front page polls do that. It's too small a fraction of the whole. It's never been a large enough sampling to bear validity as that of D&D gamers in general.

 

[Psion]

Doesn't anyone else find it odd that people are complaining about places selling books for their suggested retail price?

Not really. It's competition. It's natural in a capatalist economy. And you and I live in the same decidedly capitalist country.

 

[Gizzard]

Well, actually...Amazon only posted a slight net loss for the Q1 this year and that loss was MUCH lower than some forecasters had expected it to be. Still, their revenues were up yet again. And this comes after Amazon posted a net gain for Q4 2002.

Well, depends on what you mean by "slight" loss. ;-) Here are the numbers:

Mar 2003: -10 M$
Dec 2002: +2 M$
Sep 2002: -35 M$
Jun 2002: -93 M$

Also, their revenues were not up in the last quarter. They were signficantly down compared to the previous quarter. That's not surprising, the previous quarter was the Christmas quarter and Amazon seems to be seasonally driven just like ordinary retailers.

Anyway, the point is that Amazon is not quite yet profitable - they can't lose 10 M$ for three quarters and then make 5 M$ at Christmas as a sustainable business plan.

I like Amazon, I order stuff from them all the time. But I do wonder what their long-term relationship is going to be with the RPG industry. Will the key to their survival be to cut support for lower selling products - such as most RPG products? And if they decide to do this two years down the road, where will the hobby be?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Regarding the statistical principles you mention, I hope you do not mean the polls we make here. Those might bear some resemblance to a sampling of this community but cannot be extrapolated to engender the opinion of D&D gamers in general. Not even EN World's front page polls do that. It's too small a fraction of the whole. It's never been a large enough sampling to bear validity as that of D&D gamers in general.

You've got that right. The employees at Games Plus are always talking about EN World and a lot of customers there, people who I think are fairly smart and hip, have no idea of what En World is and this includes the various En World days we've had down there.

"Hey this is great!"

"Yeah, who would've thought that an Internet site could provide such cool stuff."

"What site is that?"

Me slapping hand on head in shake of disgust.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I have seen so many threads and comments against the upcoming 3.5 books, that you can imagine my surprise when I went to Amazon.com and saw the Sales Ranking for the new books:

PH - 58
DMG - 74
MM - 94

To put that in perspective here are some other Sales Rankings:

John Grisham, The King of Torts - 93
The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings box set - 319
Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone - 84

These Sales Rankings are updated constantly I think so don't expect the numbers to be exact but it's still quite surprising.

Not surprising at all! When 3E came out, the books were the #1 best sellers on Amazon. I fully expect that 3.5 will achieve the same success.

-z

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Heck I'm not surprised either. while I have many things that I think they could of done better, I've never waivered from my I'm going to get it viewpoint(though I care more about getting AU). I'm sure there will be plenty of things I do like, so it will be worth it. Heck its almost worth getting just for the clearer grappling rules. Add in the others things I've liked about what's been released and I'm a happy customer. I could be happier, but I'm still happy to shell out the 90$.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Now hold on a minute

I'm not against discounting I'm against "massive discounting" because it damages local businesses and hobbies. Doesn't anyone else find it odd that people are complaining about places selling books for their suggested retail price?
Anyway, I'm discounting the core books mainly because I wanted to pass on some kind of savings to my fellow gamers. I already sell all my gaming books at 15% off so an extra 10% is just an extra bonus. I'm doing the same thing with Arcana Unearthed and adding an extra discount.

~D

(Disclosure: I'm the editor for Amazon's game store and wrote the reviews for 3E.)

Derek, we've disagreed before and I don't want to get into an argument but I've got to call you on the above quoted statement.

Amazon tries to be "the world's most customer-centric company". That phrase is honestly behind every business decision Amazon makes. As a cynical gamer I was at first suspicious, figuring it was just a slogan. It's not. So:

The reason Amazon discounts is because it wants to pass savings on to customers.

The reason you discount is because you "wanted to pass on some kind of savings to my fellow gamers".

These reasons are the same.

The fact that Taloncomics' sales volume does not allow it to comfortably discount as much as Amazon does not make Amazon bad or Taloncomics good. The motivations for the discount are the same.

Example: Pro pitcher Randy Johnson likes to throw fastballs. I like to throw fastballs. Our enjoyment of throwing fastballs is the same, but Randy can throw them much faster. If you're the manager of a baseball team which pitcher, me or Randy Johnson, is the better choice? If you care about fastball speed, Randy is the better choice because he can throw faster. Does that mean Randy is a bad person? No. It means he's a capable pitcher.

Taloncomics discounts. Amazon discounts. The reason both stores discount is because they want to pass savings on to customers. The motivation for discounting is the same, but Amazon's discount is greater. If you're a buyer of a book, which store is the better choice? If you care about price, Amazon is the better choice because it provides a greater discount. Does that mean Amazon is a bad company? No. It means Amazon is a capable retailer.

Taloncomics is a retailer. Amazon is a retailer. You're a gamer, I'm a gamer, our customers are gamers--that's all equal. The discount percentage is not equal. That difference in discount does not create a moral imbalance.

Furthermore, I don't believe your claim that Amazon hurts the game hobby. On the contrary, I say that the Amazon is a great boon for the hobby. If the nearest game store to Bob is 2 hours away in the city, then Bob can't game. But he can buy at Amazon, and can game. If Jim can't afford game books at a physical store, then Jim can't game. But he can buy at a discount at Amazon, and game. If Brenda is too busy to drive to a physical game store in the hopes that that store happens to have the game book she wants on its (limited) physical shelves, then she can't game. But she can order at Amazon, order virtually any book with an ISBN number, have her books delivered to her very doorstep, and game.

Amazon gets more games to more people at lower prices. This is good for game publishers. This is good for game players. This is good for the game hobby.

Good is not bad.

-z, growing tired of being called a bad guy.

*Of course, you don't have to wait for delivery of PDFs, music, e-books, software, and other downloads. Like Monte's Malhavoc stuff or Denny's Worldworks stuff, which I recently added to (or am in the process of adding to) Amazon's e-books store.