For everyone who piles on Avalanche for their covers, please look

[Wolfspider]

OK. Here's the silly post that I've wanted to make all afternoon. It's lost it's punch, I'm afraid (if it ever had any to begin with).

If you think a naked demon women is not titilation because it is mythological, then I question your resolve on your stance.

Well, I don't find Marilith demons very titillating. And I've never really gotten off on Blibdoolpoolp's picture in the old Deities and Demigods book. She's got a lobster's head, for crissake! (No insult meant, all the lobster-loving folk of the world.) And, similarly, the Marilith has six arms (each holding a deadly instrument) and a snake's lower body. I don't think that a jar full of Viagra could make me feel passion for that thing. But, hey, that's just me. Taste is a fickle thing....

"Context" should never be used to find acceptance of questionable behavior/events.

There are so many real world examples I could use to counter this statement, but, since this IS a message board devoted to a fantasy game, I think I will use an example from fantasy. (Plus, I'm not in the serious kind of mood I was earlier.)

Sir Bob, paladin of the realm, knight protector of all that is good, storms into the throneroom of the king and lops his head off, right in front of the entire court! The horror!

He should be executed immediately, and, because the royal advisor is a man who believe that "'Context should never be used to find acceptance of questionable behavior/events," the royal guards dispatch the once-noble Sir Bob on the spot.

Then they notice the king's body, flopping around on the floor. The headless body rises and begins to shift, turning into a doughy-looking humanoid--a doppleganger! Oh, ye gads! What have we done, the court cries! Oh poor noble Sir Bob!

But, the royal advisor says, we must not look at this issue within its context! Context doesn't matter! Sir Bob killed the king and that's all that matters! Urk--!" (as the doppleganger strangles the fool to death.)

The moral of the story: Context matters.

 

[Wolfspider]

Assuming for a moment that context is a reasonable rationalization (I'll reserve judgement on whether or not it really is) what is the context for DFB that could possibly justify fighting in a thong?

Perhaps they're all wizards in the Scarred Lands setting....

 

[Desdichado]

careful, joshua. questions like that will get you labeled a troll by some.

I can take it. Usually, even online, if you speak civilly and use thought-out logic, only the most reactionary of individuals will try to bring you down that way. They can be safely ignored, thus de-fusing them before they can cause much trouble.

 

[EricNoah]

Re: Re: Re: Grrrrrr....

sorry eric. pointing out inconsistency is not a troll. see Furn Darkside's last post for someone who is looking at this objectively.

Being inconsistent isn't being hypocritical. Big difference.

Calling someone a hypocrite isn't trollish, it's rude and mean-spirited.

I just think we can treat each other better is all...

 

[Wolfspider]

only the most reactionary of individuals will try to bring you down that way

Hear that, Eric? You're a reactionary!

Oh, and here's a question for you perfect moral creatures who believe that "Context should never be used to find acceptance of questionable behavior/events."

Is it right or wrong to cut a person's arm off with a sharp metal object?

Heh heh heh.....

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Probably my last post of the day. Not getting tired of the thread, but the message board is crazy slow....

Originally posted by King_Stannis
You are drawing a conclusion from one product, BG.

A product with an ad campaign originally aimed at men and
defended its ads based on (can I call it "gender politics" without seeming PC? Probably not) "hot babes". So there's a bit of a stronger similarity here than some of the examples you suggested.

Now bear with me, because I play computer games more
than I watch TV...


What about herbal essence shampoo?

Product targeted at women featuring woman clad in more than
electrical tape/"daisy dukes"/whatever and being hit on by studs. If said woman is naked it is because she is featured in the shower but the TV shows her from the shoulders up.

Sexy? Yes. But I don't think guys would go for it. I don't at least. Is this different from RPGs? I don't think so. But while
guys will buy shampoo, Avalanche et al aren't really doing much to promote the gaming industry. Given that the gaming industry makes less money than the quilt making industry ...I'd like to see some improvement.

When did Jerry Springer get popular?

When the show featured disfunctional relationships. People seem to like those in the same way they slow down at traffic accidents If they had models on every show or had a model in a bikini host the show I wonder if it would do as well.

What is E’s most popular show? Smart money is on “Wild
On..” – pure sex.

Sorry. My cable money went to DSL so I could be Ruler Of
The World in online video games. I'll have to take your word on this one. And, incidentally, I'm still getting my butt kicked online.

Take a look at the costumes this weekend at the halftime
of the super bowl and tell me that sex doesn’t sell or matter.

If it mattered that much the XFL would still be on. The camera isn't on the cheerleaders for very long compared to the players. And look at baseball, hockey, and golf (and soccer for the non-Americans)! No sex and they do just fine. Basketball would be a better example. Women do seem to like those tall
men wearing shirts where you can see their strong arms (of
course, pasty fleshy guys like me are much more appealing but you know how some women can be).


snipped other examples

Sure. But who are those products/services targeting?
Should the RPG industry shrug its shoulders and accept it?


Sex sells. It always has, and as long as there are men
with testosterone, it always will.

Yep. And people can buy whatever they want to buy. But I
don't think it will make for better games. Was it the skin in Brom's work that made Dark Sun stand out or was it the gritty portrayal? Tony DiTerzelli (sp?) didn't need to have sexy drawings to convey a sense of the fantastic for Planescape.

There will always be sexy covers on RPGs. People (especailly guys, it's hardwired into us) will always dig the naked form of
whatever gender we prefer(*). But there are limits and it is our duty as consumers to ask what those limits are. My limits may be lower than others; but I don't think this makes me "moral" anymore that buying the entire line of Avalanch products
would make someone else "immoral".

Biggus Geekus

(*) and just so we all know where I'm coming from, I had
Shadowrun's Sally Tsung on my dorm room wall ... which my girlfriend at the time promptly ridiculed ("how does she run in heels?")

 

[Kichwas]

Re: A guy's buttcheek...?

My wife and I can't get over one of their other products - I forget which one, Greenland maybe? - where they basically tell you that "women should get these stat penalties and no bonuses, suck it up".

Yes that's the Greenland book...

It makes what a lot of people seem to make as an assumption.

That Victorian era upper class English women are the norm throughout human history and society.

In a Victorian England game I would give a woman those penalties. But I would give a man from the same social class the same penalties...

They were an extreme historical abberation and not the norm.

But post victorian western cultures are still obsessed with this idea of women as fraile, guileless, and needing protection.

We still haven't gotten it that this concept was never the norm on most of the planet. In most societies women had to tough it out along with their men. Oppressed or not.


What this book did was put such women side by side with what we can assume is the potential of not just any Viking; but one of a warrior's upbringing.

In such a contest you would get such an extreme. But again Victorian England is the only time you might find such a society and only then if you all assumed all men were coal miners and all women were ladies of 'high birth'.

(Which actually sounds about right for some of the pulp era novels and many Romance novels ).

Checking out the Avalanche covers, they seem pretty straightforward to me. They are pictures of girls.

The Malhavoc cover is a picture of girls in D&D.

Don't know if that makes a difference.

It makes all the difference.

That's for me is what the whole issue is about.

context.

I like cheesecake art. I think it's a staple of fantasy and I feel the human body needs to be celebrated.

For that matter I prefer beefcake art as well.


But when the context is off it bothers me. When it's poorly executed it bothers me. In this case it is both.

The same art on a non historical line would likely not get much notice by me. Though I'd desire more content around the women. Simple snapshots of women by themselves is rather bland for a fantasy cover.

 

[tsadkiel]

Assuming for a moment that context is a reasonable rationalization (I'll reserve judgement on whether or not it really is) what is the context for DFB that could possibly justify fighting in a thong?

Not having read the module, I wouldn't know. But the woman with her back to the viewer seems to be tattooed - I'd assume she's a Graven One, and fights in a thong in order to have access to her magical tattoos. The other woman, though, seems to be an Embermage, and has no such excuse.

 

[Fiery Todd]

Hello Everyone!

Jeez, y'know, I wish I could have gotten to this thread sooner...I have an advanced copy of Demon God's Fane in front of me, and it looks like Monte has already addressed the situation (pun totally intended). That is, on the cover of the copy I own, both women are covered up. Before printing, somebody must have wanted to avoid the debate that it was sure to cause (ha!) and had Brian LeBlanc, the cover's artist, alter it to be more "PC".

I mean, I'm just speculating here, but the version that you're speaking of is not the version that I'm looking at right now. Y'see, covers are generally done long before the final release date of a project so that the covers themselves can be used for marketing and distribution purposes. I'm assuming that the version on the S&S site was the first incarnation of the cover and quickly used to have as an icon to pre-order the book. Then, before the book went to the printers, Monte must have had the cover redone to better reflect what he wanted, as in, having the girls covered up a bit (Some more fabric has been painted over to cover up the centers of attention...).

I would also like to explain the cover for "Beyond All Reason" (that was posted earlier in this thread). I'm the author of it, and had a hand in the look of its cover. The particular scene that is being protrayed depicts two fire giants battling a party of adventurers, one of which happens to be a women. The women adventurer, is indeed, scantily clad. But if you look carefully, the whole party is. Why? Because the adventure takes place in an active volcano. The giant's stronghold is extremely hot so the rules effects for the environment come into play. Hence, the reason for the party wearing minimal garb (.. and armour chafing is subdual damage I believe...).

Anyway, that's that. Cheers.

Todd Secord,

Fiery Dragon Productions

 

[Wolfspider]

The REAL cover

LOL!

Well, King_Stannis...do you have something you would like to say to everyone here?

I have something to say to you:

Nyah nyah nyah!