D&D General For those that find Alignment useful, what does "Lawful" mean to you

[Amrûnril]

Lawful Evil characters are the ultimate rules lawyers- while they too see social order as important, they have no problems exploiting loopholes and making sure the law benefits their interests above all others.

I'd actually see manipulation of the law for personal advantage as a relatively weak manifestation of lawful evil. A purer form would be dedication to a worldview built around morally repugnant rules and structures.

Belief that the strong deserve to rule over the weak. Commitment to social and legal structures founded on racism, misogyny and the like. Making a show of gratuitously brutal punishments in order to keep people in line. To me, these are the hallmarks of lawful evil.

 

[Yaarel]

I was just told that if I use power to do it, it is evil…

Oppressing someone else is already Evil. Helping an individual or a group become free from it is Good. In certain situations using force to defend against the oppessor is the least-Evil option available.

 

[Rabulias]

I agree with others who have posted that "lawful" in alignment terms has less to do with "laws" and more with order and consistency. That being said, I still get a kick out of Arwin, the paladin in the old comic book Empire Lanes. If you are not familiar with it, a group of adventurers jump through a portal to land in 1987 Chicago (in the bowling alley of the title). The daughter of bowling alley's owner takes to helping the adventurers and on their first venture out of the bowling alley, the following happens:

As a counterpoint to Arwin's extreme lawfulness, the gnome Renfield and the halfling Damon steal a pair of sunglasses off the passerby to give to Hammerfoot the dwarf, who is having trouble with the bright sunlight.

 

[payn]

Why is freedom now good instead of chaos like it was in the thing I quoted?

Freedom is good because it allows people autonomy, which is the desired value. Doesn't mean the same thing as the chaotic freedom ideal. Freedom in this case is the desired out come of the lawful structure.

Why is peace now law and not good like previously? These definitions keep shifting, there is nothing concrete behind them. Also, by your definition NATO would be evil and doubt many would agree, especially now…

It's one possible interpretation of "I need power to ensure peace". Wielding power to ensure things sounds lawful evil. It's lawful because its a state you want to maintain, its evil because you want to wield power to ensure it. It doesn't have to be LE, its not the only answer. It could certainly be lawful neutral because you wield the power only when necessary to ensure the peace. You need a more context than a simple statement.

Im going to try and tip toe the politics line very carefully and talk in general and not use your specific example directly. Do you believe the organization is evil because of the consequences of its outcomes? Particular actions are good or evil, but ultimately the ideals and intentions rule the alignment. For example, if you have power of economy being used to force decisions on someone else, but the intention is to force a ceasefire or avoid a war, its at the very least a neutral application. If war breaks out because of it, that's despite intentions of the actions which were to stop it.

 

[RuinousPowers]

It depends on what the code is and how well you follow it. A chaotic person with a personal code will bend or break that code fairly often.

A personal code that gets broken fairly often looks just like the absence of the code. Sounds like Chaotic is the alignment of hypocrites and liars, or at least the self deluded.

 

[FrozenNorth]

pure order, like in Astronomy where harmony is the rule ?

Pfff…everyone knows that Astronomy is the realm of the Dark Old Ones, and they are certainly not lawful.

 

[le Redoutable]

Where does it mention society at all? This is what you posted.

"Lawful Good, "Crusader"

A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished."

A moral compass is not a code. It's not refined enough and can shift.

a clever LG pc will challenge himself into making arrangements so that the guilty will understand where he mishandled a given situation ( always with the hope of making a new friend )
well, this is my point of view !

 

[FrozenNorth]

From the 3e PHB.

"Lawful Neutral, “Judge”: A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a
strong, organized government. Ember, a monk who follows her discipline without being swayed either by the demands of those in need or by the temptations of evil, is lawful neutral."

Isn’t that only persuasive if you believe that the 3e approach to alignment was right? To me, it is the epitome of ridiculous and unjustified restrictions on character behaviour because “alignment”.

 

[le Redoutable]

I'd actually see manipulation of the law for personal advantage as a relatively weak manifestation of lawful evil. A purer form would be dedication to a worldview built around morally repugnant rules and structures.

Belief that the strong deserve to rule over the weak. Commitment to social and legal structures founded on racism, misogyny and the like. Making a show of gratuitously brutal punishments in order to keep people in line. To me, these are the hallmarks of lawful evil.

in France, after the 1789 revolution, power was sent to the weak ...

 

[HammerMan]

but that's the problem with the tags we like to use. John Locke the guy that inspired the us founding fathers and the magna carta was a libertarian.

again skipping the political part for real world (more or less cause it applies to that too) this is where scales matter.

imagine a 1-10 scale for each part of alignment... a 10 lawful 10 good is similar but WAY less flexible then 6 Lawful 4 good
now there is NO real scale (realworld or in game) that we will ever agree on.. but in the back of your mind you need to remember that every Libertarian isn't the same, every Lawful person isn't the same amount of lawful...