Forced movement abilities

[NHBaggesen]

Ok, this is my first post here, and my concern may have been discussed elsewhere, but if so I hope some kind soul will refer me to the post and most bite my head off.

Anyway, I'm a bit concerned about the various forced movement abilities in 4e, such as the tide-of-iron, the goblin picador, the force blast of the hobgoblin warcaster and so on. Basically their effectiveness seem to be more or less proportional to the danger of the environment.

Certainly showing someone into the fire is way more neat than just shuffling them around a big grassy footballfield, and it fits with the 4e mentality of bringing the environment into play. SO far, so good. But what about the almost iconic fights on bridges, near chasms, on an island in the middle of lava and so on. Heck even on the second florr of a building, if the just is a window to shove someone out off. Then this forced movement can become more or less a death sentence. Sure some abilities will require some setup, since they can only push or pull, but on the other hand we can see from the picador, that sometimes you get moved even on a failure - and if there is just 5 feet to the edge of that chasm you are gone (possibly dragging the goblin with you, but still). In that case you don't even get your 'save'.

So you try to figure the environment into your encounter design. But really - how may XP is it to fight near a chasm? That would seem to depend a lot on the other abilitites in play. And even if you try to create something that isn't a total deathtrap but still suspenseful and challenging, there is the issue of all the forced movement abilities possessed by the PCs.

I don't mind the cool moments where an impromtu bullrush saves the day, as the hobgoblin boss gets shoved over the edge off the chasm and plummets into the raging river (from where he will return as a recurring villain, obviously - with that kind of death how can he not). But when the players realise their newfound power and decide to push it (pun intended) all your adventures suddenly have to be relegated to the fantasy equivalent of Holland (or a flat place of your choice), and even speed bumbs are looked at with caution.

To sum up, it just seems that (depending on the environment) forced movement comes very close to being an effective bypass for hp and other defenses, especially in the case of movement abilitites that work even on a miss. Or is there something obvious I've overlooked (and that we know off - please don't just say "but we haven't seen everything yet").

 

[Kordeth]

To sum up, it just seems that (depending on the environment) forced movement comes very close to being an effective bypass for hp and other defenses, especially in the case of movement abilitites that work even on a miss. Or is there something obvious I've overlooked (and that we know off - please don't just say "but we haven't seen everything yet").

At least one report from the D&D Experience has said that, if forced movement pushes you into hazardous terrain, you can make a save to fall prone in the last "safe" square instead of being pushed into the hazard.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Pushing someone off the edge of something allows them to make save (as in, 1-9 fails, 10-20 passes) a pass means instead of getting pushed off the edge, you fall prone.

Also, this was mentioned in a podcast several months ago, before we'd seen many of these powers, they were talking about how you can't put things like lava and bottomless pit in a first level game because people will get pushed into them.

The fact that they're aware of it, and aware that this is new/unique means I expect to see it covered in the DMG, explaining that first level encounters shouldn't be higher up than the second story, and you shouldn't put lava near a fight scene until fairly high level.

 

[Tuft]

first level encounters shouldn't be higher up than the second story, and you shouldn't put lava near a fight scene until fairly high level.

At what level are you allowed to use bridges and boats?

 

[FadedC]

You could actually have lava or a bottomless pit as an advantage to the players as long as you don't put in any monsters who can push/pull for that fight. You could have a tougher then normal battle around a pit of lava and give the players the chance to knock the enemies.

But yeah if your going to be using gobline picadors and you want to be fair, then you probably should only have a survivable drop.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

At what level are you allowed to use bridges and boats?

I think that is at 10th level, when you get your Ring of Boating, then the other one at 20th level when you get your Ring of Bridge Crossing, or whenever you get to it after that.

 

[Warbringer]

At least one report from the D&D Experience has said that, if forced movement pushes you into hazardous terrain, you can make a save to fall prone in the last "safe" square instead of being pushed into the hazard.

So, save or die then

 

[small pumpkin man]

At what level are you allowed to use bridges and boats?

Heh, you're right, perhaps I should have said "be careful if you're going to...".

Obviously, it's all going to depend on what the monster's abilities are (as well as the depth of the water).

 

[hong]

If you don't want a bottomless pit for people to fall into, you don't put a bottomless pit into the adventure. Either use shallow pits, or other ways to inflict pain.

One house rule I've seen used very often in 3E is, if a PC falls off a ledge or bridge or whatever, they get an extra Reflex save to grab something. It's one more roll they have to botch before they plummet to their doom. You could do something similar in 4E if it bothers you.

 

[CleverNickName]

I agree with the OP...all of the forced movement abilities are only cool because they imply you will be able to push your opponent into dangerous terrain. And that means I will either have to call OSHA up to check my low-level dungeon designs for unsafe features, or I will not be allowed to use anything but flat, slip-resistant scenery with adequate padding.

Maybe your gaming group is different, but mine is the sort that will try to exploit any possible advantage, no matter how absurd it sounds. I can see it already: I am describing a coronation ceremony in the royal throne room, but everyone at the table stops listening to me as soon as they hear the word 'fireplace.'

"Wait...there is a fireplace in this room?! How big? Is it burning? Is it big enough to shove someone into it? How long would it take me to light it? Can I position myself so that the guards are between it and myself? Omigosh, omigosh, omigosh...there's a fireplace here!"

Attacks of opportunity and opposed rolls kept a lot of this stuff in check in 3.x. I am eager to see the new rules to see how they improved upon them...but I don't want to end up having to keep track of every lit torch or open window in a castle, either.