Forced Movement - AKA Autowinning KotS (spoilers)

[GorTeX]

Don't you need line of effect or line of sight or some such? I don't think you can move someone else through the portal like that, unless you bullrush them.

You can't move someone into a space they could not get to by walking--but you can walk into the blackness just fine. He'll get a save, since it is a dangerous square, and as an elite, he gets +2 to that save but it is a way to win the battle.

 

[JGulick]

Don't you need line of effect or line of sight or some such? I don't think you can move someone else through the portal like that, unless you bullrush them.

I would personally rule that you have LoE into the gate (but nothing to target there that isn't already in the room, i.e., the tentacles), just to allow forced movement into the gate. And you just need LoE to the subject square, not to where the Push's subject actually ends up.

Sort of like I don't require LoE to the bottom of a pit (which is where they subject of the push actually ends up), but rather just to the square of the opening above the pit. Anyone who insists you need LoE to the actual destination of the Push (the bottom of the pit) gets no support from any of the examples of RAI even if RAW might be read to support them.

By the way, Bullrush in no way removes any of the restrictions on Push, so I don't see why you consider it an exception here.

 

[Henry]

I think that's the point to it. It's also why I didn't put Kalarel anywhere near the portal, and had him chanting at one end of the room near an altar.

However, it shows creative player thinking, and rewards the players who do it. Earlier in the Keep, in the hobgoblin torturer room, I had a fighter who used tide of iron to knock the torturer into the burning brazier of turture implements behind him, causing significant damage and got the idea in the player's heads that terrain is their friend and their foe, as well.

 

[Xorn]

I think that's the point to it. It's also why I didn't put Kalarel anywhere near the portal, and had him chanting at one end of the room near an altar.

However, it shows creative player thinking, and rewards the players who do it. Earlier in the Keep, in the hobgoblin torturer room, I had a fighter who used tide of iron to knock the torturer into the burning brazier of turture implements behind him, causing significant damage and got the idea in the player's heads that terrain is their friend and their foe, as well.

Last night the rogue used positioning strike to shove the goblin warrior into the iron maiden (with sneak attack from first strike, no less) then slammed it shut on him. Worse still is that the wizard later pulled the iron maiden open again, snarled at the little guy, and slammed it shut again. He died.

As far as the final fight, that's pretty funny. If the party is trashed and probably not going to survive, I'd let him be shoved through (though with a save of course). If they are pretty fresh, the thing in the portal keeps him from falling in--it's on his side, after all.

 

[hailstop]

You can't move someone into a space they could not get to by walking--but you can walk into the blackness just fine. He'll get a save, since it is a dangerous square, and as an elite, he gets +2 to that save but it is a way to win the battle.

You can also rule that he gets an additional +2 from the DM's friend as something is trying to get out of the portal (specifically an ally).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Last night the rogue used positioning strike to shove the goblin warrior into the iron maiden

Excellent!

-Hyp.

 

[Derren]

My larger point was that it appears with the scaling danger of terrain that by the end of the module you should have a healthy respect for it.

It wouldn't surprise me if this module was specifically written this way to showcase 4Es new positioning attacks.

 

[captainstewart]

Wow, very cool. I've read over the encounter a couple of times (note, my party is just heading into the keep), and I never thought of that. I was thinking that this encounter was going to be exceptionally nasty for my group, especially since I've given my party the option to choose whatever classes suit them and noone picked up the leader role), but if they came up with this idea then I would happily let them try to thow Kalarel in. Granted, he sure isn't going to be in a good mood if he makes his save.....

I'm also thinking of bringing him back as a lich or some sort of demon as the master boss for the heroic tier. Gives a whole feeling of continuity to the story IMO.

 

[questing gm]

I'm also thinking of bringing him back as a lich or some sort of demon as the master boss for the heroic tier. Gives a whole feeling of continuity to the story IMO.

This is a creative comeback by the DM from a creative solution by the players!