Forced Movement and Walking Wounded

[Alraiis]

Walking wounded (rogue daily 5) states: "Until the end of the encounter, if the target moves more than half its speed in a single action, it is knocked prone at the end of its movement."

The question is simple: Is forced movement, such as the slide caused by positioning strike, or the push from thunderwave, sufficient to knock the target prone if the distance of the push, pull, or slide exceeds half the target's speed?

 

[chaotix42]

The intent seems to be that the target is knocked prone when they move with their own actions. You could interpret it to mean anyone's single action, but that's not how I'd rule it.

 

[Alraiis]

What, in particular, suggests this intent?

 

[Khime]

The flavor of the power is that you have weakened the target, so he is stumbling around, and if he moves too far he falls over. Using forced movement (push, pull, and slide) does not count as a move action by the target ("no opportunity attacks", "not a move", "ignore difficult terrain" from the Forced Movement rules all conspire to show that it's not the same as if you moved yourself), and the text says "if the target moves" and not "if the target moves or is moved."

 

[Pierson_Lowgal]

Thread Hijack:

Does the target know that if he/she/it moves more than half, he/she/it will fall down?

 

[MrAlgothi]

I agree with Khime's response and would probably DM it as so, but the rules did leave it open to interpretation. This, however, does not mean forced movement on the target of Walking Wounded is worthless. If you or an ally have the ability to push the target more then half its movement away from you, you basically force it into a situation where it has to make two hard choices. Either move enough to attack and be prone for both the attack (-2 to attack) and your ally attacks (+2 to hit vs melee) or move up slightly and not attack. Either way, you and your allies gain a huge advantage with the combination of the two effects. Of course this combo is not effective it the target has a ranged attack.

 

[Protagonist]

as with all imposed conditions and the way all powers work: yes they know that they have been affected by walking wounded and are aware of the consequences.

 

[Alraiis]

The flavor of the power is that you have weakened the target, so he is stumbling around, and if he moves too far he falls over

Flavor arguments are a bit tricky. After all, the flavor of positioning strike is that you shove the target. If he's weak and stumbling, it's not unreasonable to assume that he'll fall over after he gets shoved around.

Also, what about cause fear? Is there a distinction?

I see what you're saying, Khime, about the fact that forced movement "does not count as a move action by the target," but the power isn't quite that specific. "In a single action" could refer to anyone's action, and isn't restricted to move actions.

But, if "if the target moves" is as restrictive as you say, let me ask this: If a target is force-moved into a wall of fire, does it take damage? Remember that wall of fire says "If a creature moves into the wall's space...." If the language of forced movement were as strict as you suggest, a slide through a wall of fire would be harmless.

...But maybe it is?

 

[SweeneyTodd]

Generally anything affected by a condition or effect acts as if it knows the details and consequences. (Marking is the canonical example.)

I suppose that means that no monster affected by it is going to take the 'go prone' effect unless not getting more than half your move is going to be fatal.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

Alraiis, I can respect your take on the rules, but I don't think that's the whole story. The books are pretty specific on how DM adjudication based on "what the table thinks makes the most sense" is the primary method for deciding stuff like this.

So yeah, if you want to go "strictly as written", it's reasonable to let it apply to forced movement. Heck, under the flavor interpretation, it can work either way, too.

But taking off my "online rules discussion hat", my interpretation would be "The rogue stabbed the guy in the gut, if he tries to run away he'll rupture... getting moved isn't the same thing as running away" versus "There's a gigantic burning area 5' to the left, if you end up in it from moving or being moved, either way you're inside the fire."

Another way of looking at it: Forced movement has no relation to an NPC's own movement speed, meaning that Walking Wounded -> Thunderwave would work on slow creatures but not fast ones. That seems wonky to me, and when applying the rules leads to something wonky I typically go for another interpretation.

I'm just saying, I think looking at the imagined events going on "in game" shouldn't be excluded from rules discussions, since the rules themselves tell the DM to keep those considerations in mind. I may be an outlier, but I've never had one of these situations come up in play and actually had it slow us down -- typically it's a matter of seconds to reach consensus on how we all think some edge case should work.

Or in other words -- If you're the DM, then you choose. If you're the player, then your best bet is typically to politely go with how the DM sees it, because it's such a small and uncommon situation.