Forcing enemies to shift

[Tuft]

No, that seems more problem-free from believability point of view.

There is still a chance of abuse of course. Using Cha means it can be pushed around potentially too much, even faster than its own speed.

Well, if you can fool a gelatinous cube using your Cha, then you can push a dragon using your Str.

Besides, it's often been stated on these forums that it is all about narrative control, not physics simulation. So, as you sieze control of the narrative by using your power, you just add a little extra to your story, e.g. by stating that the dragon was standing on one leg at the moment of the push (or riding a unicycle or whatever ), and thus you were able to push such a large monster. Or, to put it another way, if you look at powers as pure player control over the narrative, monster size is not a problem - just let the player invent an explanation on why the monster was moved.

If you can think up an explanation on why standing next to an half-elf makes you more diplomatic, then you can explain why a dragon moved in the right direction at the right time.

 

[Ian O'Rourke]

If you can think up an explanation on why standing next to an half-elf makes you more diplomatic, then you can explain why a dragon moved in the right direction at the right time.

Funny, quite true.

I'm still confused why the fighter going toe-to-toe with very big creatures and standing his ground hasn't casued problems for people in the past considering how much problem they are having with this. Isn't just as un-realistic that them larger creatures didn't bash or move the human-size people around the battlefield just due to size?

 

[Li Shenron]

Besides, it's often been stated on these forums that it is all about narrative control, not physics simulation.

It feels like you're considering some rules differentiations a hindrance instead of an opportunity. Making things too equal might look like it's giving you more freedom to make up your story, but the way I see it it rather gives you less hooks.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Funny, quite true.

I'm still confused why the fighter going toe-to-toe with very big creatures and standing his ground hasn't casued problems for people in the past considering how much problem they are having with this. Isn't just as un-realistic that them larger creatures didn't bash or move the human-size people around the battlefield just due to size?

Yes, it is, and if the 4E rules made it where this happened more often I'd applaud it. What I'm concerned with is that 4E is letting small, light creatures force-move large, heavy creatures. I can only accept this to a point -- I can rationalize one size difference (maybe he's using something akin to a martial arts move) but a small creature shifting a gargantuan creature would just be ridiculous.

Ken

 

[invokethehojo]

I read about a wizard utility that was 15th level (?) that did radius thunder damage pushing all opponents back 4 squares. To me this kind of power sounds like it would knock characters back, like a blast or explosion would, leaving them prone. However, I haven't seen any mention of prone. I know this will sound simulationist but I have a hard time seeing a blast of thunder pushing guys 20 feet while they stand up.

Also, does anyone know for sure if getting up from prone still provokes? I've seen different rule versions that contradict each other.

 

[HeinorNY]

Yes, it is, and if the 4E rules made it where this happened more often I'd applaud it. What I'm concerned with is that 4E is letting small, light creatures force-move large, heavy creatures. I can only accept this to a point -- I can rationalize one size difference (maybe he's using something akin to a martial arts move) but a small creature shifting a gargantuan creature would just be ridiculous.

Ken

Yesterday a mosquito shifted me when it tried to land on my eyes. The little bastard drove me mad.

I've seen a rat shifting an elephant once.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Mythbusters! They actually showed elephants being afraid of mice.

 

[invokethehojo]

I thinkg if you are creative enough (as all those OD&D types saw we aren't any more) you should be able to imagine a way for all of these rules to work. If you're standing next to a half elf and speaking the half elf just pops in once in while with a comment that steers you in a more diplomatic direction, or even makes a false point so you can easily counter it and therefore seem more well-spoken.

 

[HeinorNY]

I thinkg if you are creative enough (as all those OD&D types saw we aren't any more) you should be able to imagine a way for all of these rules to work. If you're standing next to a half elf and speaking the half elf just pops in once in while with a comment that steers you in a more diplomatic direction, or even makes a false point so you can easily counter it and therefore seem more well-spoken.

I have a very charismatic and well-spoken friend. When we were younger, it was a lot easier to convince girls to go out with us when he was around. What you described was exactly the kind of behaviour he had in those situations. But in my friend's case, his bonus would be to Bluff instead of Diplomacy

Good times...

 

[NilesB]

In open-field battles in older editions I've seen and played PCs (and enemies) who do all kinds of moving around - running in and out of the battle, going for better positioning, etc. The AoO rules absolutely killed this in 3e - nobody dared move further than 5' once they were engaged.

Enemies got free attacks on you if you tried to maneuver or disengage or flee once engaged in 1st/2nd edition too. At least in 3rd you had the 5' step.