Forked Thread: Does Turn Undead need fixing?

[Shin Okada]

It has two main problems:
1) It uses a table. Gah!
2) Undead HD scale up way faster than CR, and you can't actually turn anything CR-appropriate after low levels.
-blarg

Yeah. And it is rather silly when you can turn a lich but cannot turn giant zombies he has created.

In addition to those problems, I found players tend not to use turning, because letting undead monster flee without destroying them is often a very bad option. Letting incorporeal undeads flee will just worn other critters in the dungeon. Or worse, makes the next encounter much harder.

I like CD variant rule.

 

[Tiberius]

The thing I hate about the CD turning rules is that they totally nerf the strong point of negative-channeling clerics: rebuke/control. As I remember, the rules from CD cause negative-channelers to heal undead with their turning attempts, without allowing them the opportunity to control the creatures. This turns their class feature from an offensive ability into a purely defensive or support ability, which strikes me as counter to the idea of a negative-channeling cleric in the first place.

I might like it better if they could heal rather than bolster and still have access to rebuke/command.

 

[Shin Okada]

But negative-channeling clerics can, and often do, create undead by spells and use them as meat (or ectoplasmic) shields. So this area-effect level-d6 healing really helps.

 

[Angrydad]

But negative-channeling clerics can, and often do, create undead by spells and use them as meat (or ectoplasmic) shields. So this area-effect level-d6 healing really helps.

However, they also tend to command preexisting undead, which is no longer a factor in this method. I don't like the current 3.5 Turning rules, but I like the command/rebuke power because it allows for some fun strategy.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I hate the CD variant rules, it amazes me so many love them. d6/level is obscene, and turn resistance becomes rather pointless. If you don't think the CD variant is broken, compare it to what a Hunter of the Dead (CW) gets. Then note HotD is a prestige class specializing in fighting undead, whilst a cleric gets CD turning from level 1+.

I don't mind the table. My problems with it:
-HD-based means it works very oddly or not at all later on
-I don't want the monsters to run away, that's annoying, and potentially dangerous if other monsters see them.
-It should be more level-based for uses/day, instead of the current 3+cha mod
-Paladins should have it starting at level 1

I make turn undead uses/day equal to cha mod +level/4, so it pulls "even" at level 12, and by level 20 is 5+ cha mod. Or rather, I plan to in future games.

I'd like turn undead to have a list of options, rather than needing feats for them. Some would work regardless of the power of the respective undead. Like, you can use it to give undead in the area a -2 morale penalty to attack, damage, saves, and checks for 1 minute. Or weaken the effective CL of the undead enemies' spells and SLAs for a minute. Etc.... None of these would stack from multiple uses, of course. Maybe some ally bolstering, like bonuses to saves against level drain or paralysis from an undead.

I suppose I could also have a blasty option. Not sure what would be fair, though. It'd need to take into account each undead's level of power as well as turn resistance, and would have to be better than just any old reserve feat yet not too good.

These would completely replace the current turn undead. I think rebuke undead is pretty good as is, though.

 

[Shin Okada]

I hate the CD variant rules, it amazes me so many love them. d6/level is obscene, and turn resistance becomes rather pointless. If you don't think the CD variant is broken, compare it to what a Hunter of the Dead (CW) gets. Then note HotD is a prestige class specializing in fighting undead, whilst a cleric gets CD turning from level 1+.

There are so many prestige classes which are just useless or have class features weaker than standard classes. Regarding CD variant turning, comparing it to Chastise Spirits of the Spirit Shaman standard class in the same book will be more appropriate IMHO. Their mechanics are basically the same. Only affects on other kind of creatures (some of the creatures are affected by both).