Forked Thread: Healing Surges: Let's see them in Action!

Do you care to explain how healing surges lead to railroading?

-O

There is not a 1 to 1 correlation but I can see railroading and movie style plotting as being very similar. In both cases the important thing is to move the plot forward as one person (Writer/Director/DM) sees fit. Characters heal rapidly or are able to push through things not because it is realistic, but because that is what is needed in order to advance the plot the way the creator of the plot wants it to happen. I have no problem with this in film, but in role playing I object to it.
 

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I say, if you like the way the healing surge and HP mechanic works, then that's awesome and keep playing. If you don't like it and it breaks your sense of verisimilitude to the point of making the game unfun, then don't play 4e (or houserule it somehow).

What bothers me most is when one group tells the other that their preference is wrong. I like 4e and healing surges. I like 3.x and it's healing/hp model. But neither is badwrongfun, and neither is right for everyone.

(And, BTW, countering arguments by adding "FTW" at the end doesn't make an argument any stronger. IMNHO, it just adds a degree of childishness to the discussion.)
 

I for one want a more simulationist approach and don't want my RPGs so directly emulating how fictional characters work so that my character is not being railroaded through the DMs vision of how the plot should unfold and I am not rushed along at the speed of plot.
Approaching the game as a simulation of fiction and having a predetermined, DM-created plot are two entirely separate things. The former doesn't entail the latter.
 

...Characters heal rapidly or are able to push through things not because it is realistic, but because that is what is needed in order to advance the plot the way the creator of the plot wants it to happen. I have no problem with this in film, but in role playing I object to it.
I'm still kind of confused, though.

It's okay to force slow recovery times on the 'plot', but not fast recovery times?

-O
 


I'm still kind of confused, though.

It's okay to force slow recovery times on the 'plot', but not fast recovery times?

-O

I would rather have recovery times be somewhat realistic and let the plot follow from there rather than having the plot force recovery times whether they be fast or slow.
 

I would rather have recovery times be somewhat realistic and let the plot follow from there rather than having the plot force recovery times whether they be fast or slow.
Is it actually due to a "plot"? I'm still unconvinced.

I'm also still fuzzy on this being more 'realistic'.

As far as I can see, HPs and the recovery thereof are game mechanics. While it's undeniable that certain rates of HP recovery will lead to certain campaign playstyles, I'm very much unconvinced that long rates of healing are more "realistic" due to how murky HPs are in general.

Or, more to the point, I disagree that making a rule which sets the healing rate at X HP/day can possibly be more realistic than a rule which sets the healing rate at Y HP/day, no matter the values of X and Y. When you're talking about something vague & shadowy like HPs, I think the decision has to be made at the "What kinds of play does this encourage?" level instead of the "What is realistic?" level.

-O
 

Is it actually due to a "plot"? I'm still unconvinced.

I'm also still fuzzy on this being more 'realistic'.

As far as I can see, HPs and the recovery thereof are game mechanics. While it's undeniable that certain rates of HP recovery will lead to certain campaign playstyles, I'm very much unconvinced that long rates of healing are more "realistic" due to how murky HPs are in general.

Or, more to the point, I disagree that making a rule which sets the healing rate at X HP/day can possibly be more realistic than a rule which sets the healing rate at Y HP/day, no matter the values of X and Y. When you're talking about something vague & shadowy like HPs, I think the decision has to be made at the "What kinds of play does this encourage?" level instead of the "What is realistic?" level.

-O

You are correct. The poor little hit point is asked to do too much and serve too many functions. There needs to be another, second measure of physical condition so that the hit point can remain the abstract unit of combat readiness that it is.
 

In fairness, I don't think lasting injuries like this fit an HP mechanic at all.

In 3e, maybe it'd some house-rule for ability score damage from injury that causes a long recovery and actual mechanical effects. In 4e, maybe it'd be a houseruled disease track mechanism for tracking long-term injuries. Neither one looks like "hit points" to me.

-O

Full HP does not mean "Not bruised, battered, or injured in any way"

It means "I am at my full fighting capacity, perhaps despite some pain."

There's nothing saying a character has zero bruises or scrapes; or that he might not have a sprain. He could have serious injuries but a whole lot of willpower. Full HP just means that any of those negative conditions won't make a difference in the outcome of a fight.

-O

Obyrn, I feel that you're ruling out examples unjustly. Specifically, the Whedonverse examples. At the end of season two, Xander, with his broken arm, had engaged in two fights. In both cases he fought in melee but was hampered, wincing in pain and lacking much in the way of stamina. (He's in the last battle for one round before going off to find Giles, punching someone with his cast and then he's off to rescue Giles.) To me, that suggests low HP a day after his arm was broken. It's clearly not dexterity damage. It's a signifier of lingering HP damage that hasn't healed over night despite healing, hugs and rest in comfy hospital waiting areas.

Giles, groggy and out of it from physical damage, has clearly been hovering at 0 HP for several hours and has to be carried out by Xander. And, Giles, standing with bruises, cuts and broken fingers later on, could clearly engage in a fight if necessary, but also would clearly get knocked out even earlier than usual. He's in single digits of HP after being to the hospital. It's clearly not ability damage. He's in similar shape at the end of the Zeppo, where he used an axe in combat the day before. Both are signifiers of lingering HP damage that haven't healed over night.

Cordelia is out for a week after her fall and impalement by the rebar. It's clearly a slow healing process for HP, not ability damage. (From a fall?!) She's functional a week later, attending school and the Bronze, but significant physical contact (a push) causes her to pop her stitches, indicating that she's still below her top HP. It's a signifier of lingering HP damage. It's a signifier of lingering HP damage that hasn't healed over a week.

Riley in "Who Are You" winces at a sharp tap to the chest by "Buffy". He can't mix it up. But he still has the ability to dust a vampire by exposing it to the sun during a surprise round. It's a signifier of lingering HP damage that hasn't healed over night.

And on and on... I mean, clearly the series does use something approximating healing surges at times (Buffy standing up in the finale of season seven to fight on after a stabbing; Willow casting a spell from her hospital bed in season two). I've pointed out in this thread that I think the series has some examples that fit neither mechanic well (the comas, specifically), but I certainly didn't waste my time posting all of them because I believe that some of them cannot be modeled by 4E's system. I was asked to come up with examples of physical damage that takes a while to heal and impedes the person in physical combat later. I did that, over and over again on period ranging from months to the next day.
 

Forked from: Hit Points & Healing Surges Finally Explained!

5. The Princess Bride. Inigo receives a mortal wound. Count Rugen certainly thinks so. Yet, he stands up, and fights perfectly well and, after the fight, runs off to find Wesley and the others.

About this (and I think it could apply to a lot of other examples) is that it is awesome because it happens once in the movie, during the final battle with his nemesis. If Inigo was playing 4e the same thing would happen every single fight (more or less) and how much fun would it be then?
 

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