Forked Thread: KotShadowfell wierdness/plotholes.

[Byrons_Ghost]

Plane Sailing - The only thing I don't like about that is that Sir Keegan is pretty much the only person the PCs get to chat with in the actual keep itself, and my players are chatty types. Worth considering, though.

If we make Sir Keegan a bad guy, we could pass his info off onto another NPC. Perhaps the spirit of his wife or child. He had a tomb built for them, in secret, then moved them down here after the slaughter, and drank the poison when all three were sealed from within.

Making it a tomb instead of a shrine, we could change the hidden treasure room (area 6?) to a hidden shrine to Bahamut if we want to keep the holy relics in the module. The ghost could point the PCs in the right direction, or they could notice the secret door (possibly more of a sealed door created by Keegan after he went mad).

This would also make more sense for getting the hidden treasure to the PCs, rather than just having a secret room off a random hallway that's full of loot.

 

[Nebulous]

It's a flavour distinction, sure, but they're clearly obeying Bahamut and in extremely close proximity to a consecrated shrine to Bahamut. I need to work out a way to make them connected to Orcus, I think. Reflavouring the whole thing to Orcus as Plane Sailing suggests might be the simplest way.

Plane Sailing - The only thing I don't like about that is that Sir Keegan is pretty much the only person the PCs get to chat with in the actual keep itself, and my players are chatty types. Worth considering, though.

I can go either way, either establishing the shrine as one for Bahamut, or leaning toward the Orcus slant. OR...maybe Keegan is quite mad and torn between the two extremes as they fight for dominion over his undead soul.

As for the lack of NPCs to talk to in the Keep, i might flesh out one or two of the goblins to fill that role.

 

[functionciccio]

My take:

Members of Sir Keegan's family were possessed by the evil forces flowing from the Shadowfell Rift. Some of his men were possesed too. Sir Keegan tried to stop them. Killing them. The rest of the garrison, thinking he was mad, tried to stop him. Killing him.

Since he was the Lord of the keep, he was buried in a crypt along with those he "murdered". The evil forces animated him and his men into undead skeletons. Thanks to Bahamut, Sir K. was not enslaved by the darkness but mantained his free will. On the other hand, he was trapped inside his tomb, unable to escape.

His men were not so lucky, and their undead souls were filled by hatred. The power of Bahamut has still some influence over them, thou. If invoked properly (using the altars), the Platinum Dragon can finally free them and put them to rest.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

In the past I often found myself coming up with elaborate back stories to make sense of events.

Eventually though I realized there was no way for the players to ever discover the "whys" behind some of the events. And more often than not, they didn't care.

Other times, the mystery of the "why" gave the adventure a sense of mystery it otherwise wouldn't have had.

So the trick is to imply that their is a very real reason why this crazy stuff exists, but never explain it away. Preserve the mystery. And of course, you can always use it later.

Who says one of the Epic adventures won't go back and explain all of this stuff? You never know.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

These explanations work for me!

Alternatively, Bahamut's cursed these folk to an eternity of undeath. You can do that, because hey, if your worshippers get out of line, you're always allowed to whip out the locusts & plagues on them (or make them into undead). Even Lawful Good gods may very well get filled with righteous vengeance sometimes.

(I think the Forgotten Realms and Eberron "ports" of KotS both change this encounter quite a bit, so it sounds like they recognize that a LG god creating undead doesn't fit into every setting.)

(Although "with his own cold, dead hands" wins, I'm using that and thanks!)

 

[Silent Cartographer]

I dig this topic.

I've described (to my players) my take on the PoL Nentir Vale setting as Road Warrior meets Diablo. I like both the Lews Therin (redeemed, a bit crazed) and the King Leoric (corrupted, bat-guano insane) spins on our Sir Keegan. I also like to have my cake and eat it too.

So I'm thinking the Keegster and his undead guard/victims represent a blocking encounter, with Sir Keegan in full Leoric boss-mode. As suggested, the tomb becomes a side-chapel with a minor Bahamut charm/relic/magic item providing a small, sacred clean zone. If subjected to the sacred item, Sir Keegan recovers self control, turns any remaining undead guards, and parlays with the PCs as written.

Just an idea...

 

[Nifft]

It's a flavour distinction, sure, but they're clearly obeying Bahamut and in extremely close proximity to a consecrated shrine to Bahamut.

What's this "clearly obeying" BS? They were swarming us until we powered up the shrine, then they stopped.

$DEITY may have made them stop, but that doesn't imply he made them start.

Your players don't read the flavor text. Look at what's actually going on.

-- N

 

[MerricB]

It's clear that the tomb wasn't intended for him, as "The Real Story" says it was a "secret tomb within the dungeons". Which completely fails to explain why that tomb was empty, and why it's blessed to Bahamut and why the undead serve Bahamut in an Orcus-infested keep (and not y'know Orcus Lord of the UNDEAD!).

Unoccupied tombs are not unusual in our world, either. See The Great Pyramid.

As noted by other people, Bahamut has power over the undead by virtue of him being a god. Orcus & the Shadow Rift are what has animated them in the first place.

Cheers!

 

[Plane Sailing]

Plane Sailing - The only thing I don't like about that is that Sir Keegan is pretty much the only person the PCs get to chat with in the actual keep itself, and my players are chatty types. Worth considering, though.

How about evil but mad as a hatter and lonely, so he wants to talk (and clever players get him to "reveal more than he should")

 

[Jhaelen]

Just because it's fantasy, doesn't mean it shouldn't follow a logical flow. All good fantasy, without exception, follows a logical flow.

Yup, that's why there are so few good fantasy novels. I guess I should probably discuss this elsewhere; I'll try to keep it short:
The sheer amount of bad fantasy novels out there is what turned me away from reading them and returning to my old preference for sci-fi stories.

Recently, there's been a big thread about the difference between fantasy & science-fiction. Well, for me it's in the logic. (Bad) Fantasy doesn't bother to explain everything logically, Science-Fiction does. With some notable exceptions, the best fantasy novels are written by authors who also write sci-fi (imho of course).

It's similar for (D&D) adventures:
If the background, plot, and setting make sense, it's what turns an okay adventure into a great one. By comparison, it doesn't matter as much how good the encounter design is.