Forked Thread: Name exactly what 4E is "missing"

[Fifth Element]

100% correct Fifth Element, and there in lies the problem with "keep the mechanic, change the fluff". (Very well said FE.)

Bear in mind I haven't played 4E yet, and my comment was about 37% in jest. But I've been looking at the powers lately, and I find myself more and more in the "all these powers look the same" camp. At least within each class, not necessarily across different classes.

 

[El Mahdi]

How does "Keep the mechanics, change the fluff" not work? That's what I do for just about everything. There are very few true concepts that you can't make using the current rules. Some might require a minor reflavoring of abilities, but none of the mechanics need to change.

Sorry, I should have said, doesn't work for me. I want my mechanics and fluff to be married together and reinforce eachother. Changing the fluff for a mechanic, so that the fluff matches a roleplaying concept, but the mechanic doesn't explain the fluff, doesn't work for me. For an example, a 4E spell (arcane power) that causes damage, but in it's 3E incarnation didn't (such as an Illusion), has to be explained as "imagine you cast an Illusion of a hole in the floor, and the enemy crashes face first into a wall trying to avoid it", just doesn't work for me. I want the mechanics to reflect "exactly" what the fluff says it does. I'm willing to accept abstraction in certain things (such as Hit Points) since I don't see a workable alternative (for me). I'm not willing to accept an abstraction when their is a mechanical alternative to it (for me 3E).

 

[Angrydad]

Options.

And I'm not talking about 'a-dozen-third-party-books-that-will-eventually -come-out' options, I'm talking basic, my-character-shouldn't-be-exactly-the-same-as-every-other options. My biggest grip with the game is that while the wizard may have an at will magic spell, there is really only a couple of at will magic spells to choose from per level that a worth a damn. The path 'builds' are fine but I just want to make my character my way, picking the skills, feats and the like that I think will make a cool character. It's how I play WoW too, or try to, which is probably why I'm not great at that game. 4E feels like that to me. If I don't take one of the very few possible abilities, or the right ones, and build my character the right way, my character isn't cool. I want versatility, not necessarily maximum effectiveness.

I love Angrydad's description of the other major element of the game that bugs me but just not having every third ranger being a copy of the first would be awesome.

AD

You've captured a big part of what I feel is missing from 4e. It feels too much like there's a "correct" build for a given class. Part of this is, I think, due to the increasing focus on combat related powers and abilities. When so much of the rules system seems to be obsessing over how many squares such and such a power effects or how far it moves an enemy, it definitely starts to feel like a character who has chosen to focus on powers that aren't as combat related is getting left out. Again, I do realize that any non-combat stuff can be "DM discretion"ed, but I really liked having all those silly spells and skills that weren't obviously going to be useful in a combat scenario turn into something quirky for the players to use. For example, I had a monk who inadvertantly freed the devils of the 7th circle of Hell by disrupting a summoning circle when he was low level. Once he gained some power and was in the 11th-12th level range he was summoned back to the site of the summoning for a reward from the devils. He asked to have the ability to cast Mage Hand at will. A simple cantrip that can lift 5lbs. within a short range. Seems pretty inocuous and not suited for combat. He started using it to poke enemies in the eye, which we decided would cause a -1 to attacks and AC for 1 round.
This may still be perfectly viable in 4e, but the power descriptions (as written) seem to restrict this type of creative application. I like having a lot of options with guidelines that allow for any kind of expansion imagineable. 4e powers seem tougher to make up or modify on the fly. I guess that's really kind of the heart of my issue.

 

[howandwhy99]

Most of D&D.

 

[I'm A Banana]

See that is part of the problem. With my players there was no real need to choose between the two. They were able to use whatever type of abilities they had for whatever purpose they needed.It is this increase on cobat in the rules that I dislike the most about 4th ed..

Edit: Now I may be blind and there they are actually in the PHB but I want my illusions and sleep/charm spells with out damage that don't don't take an extended period to cast. (If it is the PHB please let me know where as I couldn't find it before.)

I don't think they're there, and you're right that 4e is rather narrowly focused on beating things up, but they're not too hard to add. Rituals are made for this purpose of letting people use long-lasting magical effects that aren't immediately useful in combat. It doesn't really matter how long the casting time is, all that matters is that they're not very useful for combat. Load me up on illusions and charms that I can cast with a wave of my hand to charm the barmaid and trick the ogres. There's a system in place for 'em, even if they don't specifically exist.

It's totally fair if you'd rather have them already existing than bothering to generate them, and 4e doesn't have them automatically, but there's obviously room for them (and I wouldn't be astonished in the slightest to see them coming out later).

In other words, it IS something 4e is missing, but it's not something you can't do with 4e as-written. Hope that's clear.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

A easy houserule too is to simply declare all abilities that have a secondary, non-damage effect can be done without having to complete the damage section of the Power.

 

[ExploderWizard]

A easy houserule too is to simply declare all abilities that have a secondary, non-damage effect can be done without having to complete the damage section of the Power.

Sweet!!! Now you too can use such devastating powers such as:

Evards Black Tentacles (19th level daily) your opponent can't move for a whole round, possibly longer!!

Maze (25th level daily) your opponent can't escape until its next turn, that will show em.

Forcecage (27th level encounter) your opponent is safely locked away for a whole turn!! He can still beat the crap out of anyone standing next to him though.

Players will be practically quivering with excitement to use these high level awesome powers.

Easy, yes. Satisfying, no.

 

[El Mahdi]

A easy houserule too is to simply declare all abilities that have a secondary, non-damage effect can be done without having to complete the damage section of the Power.

Fixing it with a houserule would be simple, but it shouldn't have to be fixed. Now I know the argument will be that lots of things in 3E had to be houseruled also, and you'd be right, 3E was far from perfect. I had expected and anticipated that 4E was going to fix the problems with 3E. Instead, 4E ended up being an entirely new system with it's own problems. I don't see how this is an improvement. Every time I read the 4E PHB, I see big gaps that I need to houserule. The only problem is, as soon as I start thinking about what and how I want to change it, I realize I'd basically be houseruling almost the entirety of 3E back in. I find it a lot easier to take the parts of 4E that fixes problems with 3E, and just add them onto my 3E system (along with a few of my own ideas).

Besides, just ignoring part of the mechanics that don't work for you, doesn't give you mechanics that work the way you want them to, just mechanics that don't work the way you don't want them to. Not the same thing.

 

[Midnight Dawns]

It's totally fair if you'd rather have them already existing than bothering to generate them, and 4e doesn't have them automatically, but there's obviously room for them (and I wouldn't be astonished in the slightest to see them coming out later).

In other words, it IS something 4e is missing, but it's not something you can't do with 4e as-written. Hope that's clear.

Actually that is clear,thanks. I don't mind having to make things up, sorry if it cam acrosss like that, I just prefer having some there to base it off of (and i have learnded the hard way how easy it is for imblance to happen if I or one of my players creates something new).

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

Most of D&D.

What he said