Forked Thread: SWSE vs 4e

[Ktulu]

I began my current 4e game using SWsaga (utilizing much from the gneech). However, after playing both, I like them like I like my peanutbutter and pickles; separate. Saga works wonders for good scifi (and even modern games), but I think 4e did a better job in the fantasy department.

Overall, I wasn't disappointed with 4e, no more than I was with Saga. Both are great games that will see a lot of use from me for years to come.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Saga works wonders for good scifi (and even modern games), but I think 4e did a better job in the fantasy department.

Out of interest, what leads you to this conclusion?

Cheers

 

[Ktulu]

For one, the condition track feels nice when I'm shooting at someone, but felt very out of place when we used it with the fantasy game I played. The players seemed to be constantly beaten down.

The AC system wasn't my preference for a fantasy game (we had to work around quite hard to get heavier armors to feel right)

The force worked "ok" for magic, but it was quite over-powered if you just took skill focus UTF. This, with the limited amount of force powers worked ok with the very low magic world I was using, but wouldn't have been as nice if a wizard had been in the party.

The movement system is made for run'n'gun, rather than sword fighting, so ranged characters are far more effective seeing how they can freely move 1/2 speed away from an enemy and continue to attack them. This limited the usefulness of any multi-attack melee strikes.


As such, I find the game works wonderfully when using it to mimic a Firefly-esque game, or even a d20 modern game with little or no magic.

Combat-wise, though, I feel 4e was an improvement for more melee-focused fantasy games. YMMV

 

[MarkB]

I do very much like 4e as its own system, but when viewing it in comparison with SWSE, I was disappointed at some of the differences in direction.

Particularly, I feel that SWSE is as close to a viable classless d20 product as any official WotC publication has come. It would take only minor tweaking to create a system in which characters are defined entirely in terms of talents, feats and skills.

It was initially a great shock to find that 4e had taken a diametrically opposite direction, with classes and their associated roles being rigidly defined as a fundamental aspect of game balance, and multiclassing options strictly curtailed.

In playing 4e, I've come to accept that that approach is also viable, and find it enjoyable in its own way - but I do miss the flexible system building upon SWSE's potential which I'd imagined 4e as during its development.

 

[Ktulu]

I do very much like 4e as its own system, but when viewing it in comparison with SWSE, I was disappointed at some of the differences in direction.

Particularly, I feel that SWSE is as close to a viable classless d20 product as any official WotC publication has come. It would take only minor tweaking to create a system in which characters are defined entirely in terms of talents, feats and skills.

It was initially a great shock to find that 4e had taken a diametrically opposite direction, with classes and their associated roles being rigidly defined as a fundamental aspect of game balance, and multiclassing options strictly curtailed.

In playing 4e, I've come to accept that that approach is also viable, and find it enjoyable in its own way - but I do miss the flexible system building upon SWSE's potential which I'd imagined 4e as during its development.

I do have to agree with this. I was very surprised at the different class systems of the two games and was, at first, disappointed. However, I do think 4e did a good job in taking a different approach. I like both systems for what they do. (though, seriously, Minions were NEEDED in Saga)

 

[Desdichado]

Huh. That's funny; I've long thought about using Star Wars as a fantasy system pretty much as is. I'd rename Jedi, have their lightsabers work more like a Soulknife's mindblade or something, and maybe tweak a few skills that wouldn't be applicable, and call it good to go.

I think the game would feel more like Flash Gordon on Mongo, or John Carter of Mars in some ways than it would like D&D, but I'm perfectly OK with that.

Of course, that's about as far on the development of that idea as I ever got, but it's still kicking around in the back of my head.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I haven't played SAGA, so my opinion is not too useful here, but there are certain elements I don't like:

- There is still different BAB progressions.
+15 vs +20 is not as bad as +10 vs +20, but still, I don't think it is a good design.
I prefer the 1/2 level approach of 4E. Maybe they should have used proficiency bonuses or skills to distinguish character attacks.

- Use the Force Skill vs Defenses.
It just seems broken. (I think this can also be a problem in 4E, but there aren't many "standard" ways to use a skill vs defense, it's mostly an aspect in the stunt system.)

- Talents and Force Powers.
I know that a lot of people like Talents. Some of them I do like, but they seem to break way to easy (like stacking all those Condition Track "movers" talents). And then we have something like force powers. They work differently, and I don't feel like they can be balanced well enough against each other.
Maybe talents can stay. But every characters needs something like "maneuvers" (powers in 4E parlance) class abilities (talents?), feats and skills. The core mechanical aspects should not be unique to each class.

 

[Drkfathr1]

Add me to the list of those surprised/disappointed that 4E was so different from Saga. I really like Saga and though that was the direction they'd go in, especially with the Talent trees. I find that concept to be far superior to the current power structure of 4E's classes.

 

[Felon]

My question is: do other non-4e-fans feel the same way? Would a D&D Saga Edition be a better 4e for you?

4e isn't awful or without redeeming qualities, but personally I think comparing SWSE to 4e is a pearls-to-swine comparison.

SWSE is an elegant refinement of 3.5e.

4e is a gross over-simplification of some 3.5e elements, trying to borrow as much from DDM design as possible.

SWSE is a rapier. 4e is a club.

 

[an_idol_mind]

Star Wars Saga Edition had some design points that I didn't particularly like, but it also had some worthy additions that became house rules in my game. I can't say for sure that I would have bought a D&D Saga Edition, but I would have been more likely to give it a go than what 4th edition eventually came out as. A D&D Saga Edition would definitely have been easier for me to mold into the type of game I want to play.