[forked thread] What constitutes an edition war?

Actually, it's very easy to argue against that. I'm not you. "If you had my perspective," is a nonsense phrase.

As for your experience... I have a LOT of experience. You are welcome to claim your experience is superior and more wide-ranging, but I don't believe you.

Sorry about the nonsense. I have to remind myself that everyone's mind works differently, especially from mine:o. I guess I could have said "If you shared my opinions, and experienced the same things that helped me formulate them, you'd agree with me..." but that seems slightly circular.

As far as the "experience" thing, I don't challenge the quantity of your experiences, just the quality in this one instance.

I have had a very high quality experience with 4e.

Apparently, you have not had a high-quality experience with 4e. I was just hoping that if your experience with 4e had been as high-quality as mine, you'd appreciate it more.

Looking at this now, I still can't tell if I'm going to confuse anyone again. Apologies in advance.
 

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And yet, your alternative leaves no way to ever improve anything, and denies the fact that not all designs- or assesments of designs- are of equal merit.

This is not just a matter of opinon. Some people might think that game design is just a thing anyone can do, but it's actually very challenging, and can fail of suceed to varying degrees.

<snip>

I agree with the part of your post that I quoted.

I disagree with most of the rest.



4e IS a better balanced game. I will agree with that. If you equate all of design to balance, THEN 4e is a better designed game and it might possibly even follow that it is a better game.

However, there are other elements that were sacrificed in designing 4e. These other elements were also part of the design. Some other elements were amped up, others dampened.


Design is not a linear process from "good" to "bad". It's a blending of a number of considerations and elements, and the whole that is created is the "art" (the synergy of the elements that make up the game...the "whole is greater than the sum of the parts" aspect).

But there's still plenty of "science" in deciding how much of certain elements go into game design. Do we want to model realism in which we have 50 tables with various complicated rules to address each and every eventuality (e.g. AD&D's weapon type versus armor type)? Do we want it less "realistc" and more "smooth to play"? How well a design addresses each sub element can be measured.


What I'm saying is that game design is about making tough choices. Speed versus detail; reality versus simplicity; gritty versus heroic; differentiation versus balance. Note that not all of these are polar opposites, but sometimes are more "complications" For instance, differentiation is not the opposite of balance, though balance is easier to achieve if things fall into a similar template or pattern.

Also, a less quantifiable, but no less important part of game design is fluff design. These are roleplaying games after all. A game with zero fluff, one that only presented rules and no world, no names of races, no feel to it would be poorly designed indeed. One with really bad fluff would be equally poorly designed.

So yes, some games can be called out on being horrible at balance, or realism or whatever else. Some truly horrible games out there can be called out at not being particularly good at any specific measure of good design (poor balance, incoherent and absurd fluff, clunky systems that poorly model reality, etc. etc). But it'd be impossible to find the worst RPG. Yes, there'd be a few contenders, but I doubt there'd be universal agreement on which is worst...just as we can't agree which is best.


In the end, though, you could pick one of those "worst games" that many agree is just awful, and I might think it's the best. I might have a measure that is more important to me, such as the inclination of living teddy bears, which no other game has. D&D is nice, and Call of Cthulu is too, but "Romper Stomper Teddy Bears*" is the cutest...and therefore the best.

If I reify "cutest" as the single design component that matters, and sacrifice all others to make the cutest game out there, then I've made the best. IF (note I'm saying if to make a point here, I don't actually believe this) 4e sacrificed all other elements to become the most balanced, but failed utterly at every other aspect of game design, then "most balanced" and "cutest" rpg are each best at one thing...but they're hardly the "best" rpgs out there.


My point is that, yes we can use factors to weigh quality, but we must understand that no factor is monolithic in importance to game design, and that each and every game balances the factors in different ways. To claim any one game is best is absurd. To claim a game is best at a specific factor might be reasonable, though.



*Romper Stomper Teddy Bears, coming soon to cuteify your daydreams!
 

In reality, design is a real, credible disipline, and it leads to better games, wich people have more fun with. That's a principle worth defending, and that makes me an edition warrior, then so be it.
Where can I get a funometer? I'd like to measure how much fun I'm having when I play, so I can be sure I'm doing it as designed.
 

Effective, positive design leading to people having more fun? No, not at all. The same god-damned terrible fighter that 3e had should never have made it's way into pathfinder, and when they let it in to appease the fans, they failed miserably by any standards of legitimate design.


I'm almost starting to feel like it's pointless talking to you... but just to show how your "effective positive design" is still subjective when it comes to having fun... I had a very casual player when I ran 3.5... his favorite class was... surprise, surprise the fighter or barbarian. When we tried 4e out, he created a fighter... and hated it... actually ended up leaving the group.

You see the problem was that he didn't want to pick and read over a bunch of powers to use... or analyze symetry with others in his group... and remember to mark enemies, oh and decide whether it was the right or wrong time to use a daily or encounter power, or spend an hour killing a lowly group of kobolds...

In combat all he wanted to do was roll some dice, whack a monster and pile on the damage... for him the fun was in the simplicity of playing the fighter or barbarian class. So yeah, 4e didn't create more fun for him it drained it away. Which is all to say that if you want the type of play experience 4e created I'm sure it's the best designed edition... FOR YOU... but no... it is not objectively better for everyone.
 

In the end, though, you could pick one of those "worst games" that many agree is just awful, and I might think it's the best. I might have a measure that is more important to me, such as the inclination of living teddy bears, which no other game has. D&D is nice, and Call of Cthulu is too, but "Romper Stomper Teddy Bears*" is the cutest...and therefore the best.

If I reify "cutest" as the single design component that matters, and sacrifice all others to make the cutest game out there, then I've made the best. IF (note I'm saying if to make a point here, I don't actually believe this) 4e sacrificed all other elements to become the most balanced, but failed utterly at every other aspect of game design, then "most balanced" and "cutest" rpg are each best at one thing...but they're hardly the "best" rpgs out there.

I don't think living teddy bears, or even Cthulu mythos, have much do do with system design, but more with presentation and trappings. Certainly, you could take "Romper Stomper Teddy Bears" and make it with the 4th edition system, and it would be just as cute (and probably better balanced than otherwise).

4th edition to me is the d20 resolution mechanic, supplemented by a number of options, both when creating the character and when roleplaying the character. You could do 4th edition horror, sci-fi, fantasy (the default), etc., so long as you use the underlying system.

That's also why 4e is "better" than previous editions. It's basically 3.5 (d20 resolution, classes, levels, actions), but with additional layers of options on top, none of which you have to utilize when playing 4e. You can certainly remove a bunch of things to turn 4e back into 3e, if you wanted to, but you'd just be removing some things that I imagine most players find fun (i.e. at-will spellcasting, effective and varied martial maneuvers, etc.).
 

Ahh, but It wouldn't be as cute to use 4e for RSTB.

My combat resolution mechanic is hugging.

Waaaay cuter than a d20 (but less balanced, to be sure).



(Or to be more clear, sometimes the mechanics highly influence the feel of the game, as well as the focus.)
 

I'm almost starting to feel like it's pointless talking to you... but just to show how your "effective positive design" is still subjective when it comes to having fun... I had a very casual player when I ran 3.5... his favorite class was... surprise, surprise the fighter or barbarian. When we tried 4e out, he created a fighter... and hated it... actually ended up leaving the group.

You see the problem was that he didn't want to pick and read over a bunch of powers to use... or analyze symetry with others in his group... and remember to mark enemies, oh and decide whether it was the right or wrong time to use a daily or encounter power, or spend an hour killing a lowly group of kobolds...

In combat all he wanted to do was roll some dice, whack a monster and pile on the damage... for him the fun was in the simplicity of playing the fighter or barbarian class. So yeah, 4e didn't create more fun for him it drained it away. Which is all to say that if you want the type of play experience 4e created I'm sure it's the best designed edition... FOR YOU... but no... it is not objectively better for everyone.

I just wanted to point out that he could have played the 4e fight identically to the 3.5 fighter. He could use his basic attack every time and chose not to mark. Otherwise, the rules would be the same as he was playing before: speed 30' (or less in heavy armor), he could choose to make OAs as he saw fit, etc. Very simple, and it probably wouldn't even be noticeably less effective for him compared to the other players (more similar to prior editions, actually).

It just isn't an indictment of 4e to me that it allows for a greater number of player mindsets.:p
 

I just wanted to point out that he could have played the 4e fight identically to the 3.5 fighter. He could use his basic attack every time and chose not to mark. Otherwise, the rules would be the same as he was playing before: speed 30' (or less in heavy armor), he could choose to make OAs as he saw fit, etc. Very simple, and it probably wouldn't even be noticeably less effective for him compared to the other players (more similar to prior editions, actually).

It just isn't an indictment of 4e to me that it allows for a greater number of player mindsets.:p

Nobody was trying to prove anything to you...please don't try to make some kind of point by quoting me out of context and then addressing said post.

What I was addressing was the fact that fun isn't objectively better with 4e for some people (and honestly I think you knew that before you quoted me.).
 

That's also why 4e is "better" than previous editions. It's basically 3.5 (d20 resolution, classes, levels, actions), but with additional layers of options on top, none of which you have to utilize when playing 4e. You can certainly remove a bunch of things to turn 4e back into 3e, if you wanted to, but you'd just be removing some things that I imagine most players find fun (i.e. at-will spellcasting, effective and varied martial maneuvers, etc.).

You know it's funny... a bannana split is just a scoop of ice cream with layers of options on top of it... guess that makes it "better" ice cream. Of course if you just want ice cream without all that stuf... well then it's really just a mess you have to pick through to get what you want... not better ice cream. ;)

EDIT: On a side note... what stopped those who wanted more options for martial characters from houseruling ToB mechanics on the martial classes or just using ToB... since we're getting into options and houseruling?
 

You know it's funny... a bannana split is just a scoop of ice cream with layers of options on top of it... guess that makes it "better" ice cream. Of course if you just want ice cream without all that stuf... well then it's really just a mess you have to pick through to get what you want... not better ice cream. ;)

EDIT: On a side note... what stopped those who wanted more options for martial characters from houseruling ToB mechanics on the martial classes or just using ToB... since we're getting into options and houseruling?

I suppose that's a good analogy, though I would prefer one where it didn't sound quite so... inconvenient.

As far as house rules and other options, I include them as part of the 4e system. To me, 4e is my house rules, and the core books, and the supplements, and essentials, and DDI, Dungeon, and Dragon, and the WotC forums where so much good discussion and analysis and advice goes on, and EnWorld as well, and Encounters, and Zeitgeist, and Santiago, and of course my home play group and other impromptu sessions I've played.

These are the same things I included as part of my love for earlier editions, and other games.

These are the types of things I mean, when I mentioned "my perspective." And I'm honestly dissappointed that some of my fellow gamers haven't been able to share this perspective.

Though I admit that they hopefully have this same type of perspective on their own preferred system. But based on the amount of unneeded vitriol that gets tossed amongst people who should be comrades as gamers, sometimes I think that they are not as happy as they could be:.-(.
 

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