Forked Thread: Why Ravenloft and 4E May Not Mesh

[hexgrid]

More documentation can be added if requested, but I think a case can be made that Ravenloft as a setting is fairly distant from the game play assumed by 4E, and woven into so much of the system. The setting could be plundered for one-shot domains of dread, but as a long-term setting (whether natives or outlanders), a 4E Ravenloft would mean that one or the other would have to change a lot.

How is this different from Ravenloft's relationship to any other edition of D&D?

 

[Irda Ranger]

I think a lot of the changes to FR are based on aspects not specific to 4E but rather addressing things that bugged players

No kidding. The lack of Dragonborn and the existence of Chessenta have been bugging me since the Grey Box and I, for one, welcome this long wished-for change.

Okay, but all bitterness about how the FRCS isn't remotely the Forgotten Realms that Ed Greenwood campaigned in any more aside (really, they should have just released a whole new setting if they wanted "Core 4E World"), what I'm hoping is that Wizard's decision to murder one of their better campaign settings was a lamb sacrificed on the alter of "launching 4E with maximum brand recognition" and doesn't represent a corporate strategy to mutilate everything that TSR ever published. If they hack up Ravenloft, Dark Sun and Planescape as badly as they messed up FR*, I might have to consider direct action**.

--

*Just understand; the 4E FRCS isn't necessarily a bad setting considered by itself; it's just that it's a travesty when you consider what was sacrificed to make it. Sort of how we might feel about a very competent modern painter who painted directly over a Van Gogh canvas to make a self portrait. "What were you thinking man!!!???"

**Probably just a really mean e-mail. And possibly heckling at GenCon.

 

[Zaukrie]

I always marvel at the passion people feel for these non-existent settings.

My take:

Every version of FR was bastardized to fit what TSR or WotC wanted in terms of bringing out new rules or selling books.
Every version of Ravenloft bastardized the rules to make it work (or not work).
Every setting can be run in any ruleset, it's just a matter of how much you want to alter one or the other to fit your vision.

Yes, some rule sets are easier to mesh with some gamestyles, but almost anything is doable if you put your mind to it.

 

[MinionOfCthulhu]

More documentation can be added if requested, but I think a case can be made that Ravenloft as a setting is fairly distant from the game play assumed by 4E, and woven into so much of the system. The setting could be plundered for one-shot domains of dread, but as a long-term setting (whether natives or outlanders), a 4E Ravenloft would mean that one or the other would have to change a lot.

The thing you seem to be missing is that despite those facts about Ravenloft, I am sure they are more than willing to jam that square peg into a round hole and change things to make it fit 4th Edition, much like they did to Forgotten Realms.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I always marvel at the passion people feel for these non-existent settings.

Was there a point to this comment, other than to snarkily imply that the people who have had a lot of fun playing in (and therefore have fond memories of) these "non-existent settings" are somehow less rational than the cool, logical (almost Vulcan-like, you might say) "I pretend to be an elven wizard in my spare time, but not in a dorky way" D&D players such as yourself?

Because if there was a deeper point, like whooosh!! - right over my head.

 

[Verys Arkon]

No kidding. The lack of Dragonborn and the existence of Chessenta have been bugging me since the Grey Box and I, for one, welcome this long wished-for change.

Okay, but all bitterness about how the FRCS isn't remotely the Forgotten Realms that Ed Greenwood campaigned in any more aside (really, they should have just released a whole new setting if they wanted "Core 4E World"), what I'm hoping is that Wizard's decision to murder one of their better campaign settings was a lamb sacrificed on the alter of "launching 4E with maximum brand recognition" and doesn't represent a corporate strategy to mutilate everything that TSR ever published. If they hack up Ravenloft, Dark Sun and Planescape as badly as they messed up FR*, I might have to consider direct action**.

--

*Just understand; the 4E FRCS isn't necessarily a bad setting considered by itself; it's just that it's a travesty when you consider what was sacrificed to make it. Sort of how we might feel about a very competent modern painter who painted directly over a Van Gogh canvas to make a self portrait. "What were you thinking man!!!???"

**Probably just a really mean e-mail. And possibly heckling at GenCon.

It is far from obvious that the changes made to FR were because of 4e's game system. I would think it has more to do with FR's massive bloat causing potential new players and DMs shy away from it.

On the other hand, some people love the bloat - they love to read the detail and delve into the nuances. I think this comes from the dichotomy between D&D as a game you play between sessions, and a game you play at the table.

I for one appreciate that FR is pruned back to a manageable level that allows me to be creative without my players correcting me all the time because 'it isn't like that in novel X'.

I never played Ravenloft, so I'm not sure how much bloat a 4e version would have to trim. I get the impression that Ravenloft is more about the tone than the mechanics. If thats the case, it shouldn't take too much to bring it into 4e-speak. All settings will have some little mechanical changes or additions.

 

[Alas]

Brainstorming Ravenloft for 4e

I loved Ravenloft back when it came out, and even got to run a couple games in it before my players were distracted by Spelljammer. I missed out on the 3rd ed conversions for it, but 4th ed's Shadowfell rekindled my interest in the old domains of dread, and has me wondering how I might run a session or two there. Just some extemporaneous ideas:

• I'd bring in a version of the Dread game's Jenga mechanic. Set up a regular Jenga tower on the table, and every time a character performs a certain type of action (an attack with the Necrotic keyword, for example), remove a block. If the tower falls, bad things happen.
• To invoke that sort of horror-movie tension, I'd probably play around with the way short and long rests work. I'm not sure how, exactly, but the goal of the change would be to make the party feel like they can't catch their breath.
• Along the same lines, there's got to be some way to repurpose healing surges, milestones, and action points for the horror tropes. Not quite sure how, but their influence on the pacing of the action seems key to setting the tone.
• Open Grave presented an outline for running a zombie siege as a skill challenge. Maybe something similar could be done for fighting the slow onset of lycanthropy/vampirism (like Mina Harker).
• Isolation is a key element of horror, but splitting up the party is a tough prospect in D&D-- experienced players know better, and who wants to wait through another person's solo? A possible compromise: now and then, a character wanders off on their own, and the other players get to play the monsters. Everybody gets XP for the encounter, though in different proportions based on the outcome.
• No idea how this would work, but the phrase "characters as minions" came to me while typing all this up. That seems like the sort of context-specific house rule that could really put the party on edge-- if a monster hits you, it will down you.

Just some thoughts!

 

[Zaukrie]

Was there a point to this comment, other than to snarkily imply that the people who have had a lot of fun playing in (and therefore have fond memories of) these "non-existent settings" are somehow less rational than the cool, logical (almost Vulcan-like, you might say) "I pretend to be an elven wizard in my spare time, but not in a dorky way" D&D players such as yourself?

Because if there was a deeper point, like whooosh!! - right over my head.

Wow, I must have really typed that wrong. That wasn't the message I was trying to send at all.

I'm also amazed how people live and die about whether or not a baseball team wins or loses. People with that much passion about things always amaze me, as in, "wow", not as in, "how stupid". I really like the FR, but what WotC does to it either is something I can use or not, not something I get mad about. That's not to imply that either of us is right, just different in our level of passion. Personally, I have no problem with differences.

I don't judge others' hobbies, nor how passionate they are about them, even when they are judging mine (I always find it odd that the culture in MN praises people that buy $20K boats, sit in traffic, and catch a fish and throw it back as cool/good, but people that rolepay as bad - I would never judge another's hobby like that, nor their passion for it - I think as long as people are having fun and not hurting other people, more power to them).

 

[Zaukrie]

Was there a point to this comment, other than to snarkily imply that the people who have had a lot of fun playing in (and therefore have fond memories of) these "non-existent settings" are somehow less rational than the cool, logical (almost Vulcan-like, you might say) "I pretend to be an elven wizard in my spare time, but not in a dorky way" D&D players such as yourself?

Because if there was a deeper point, like whooosh!! - right over my head.

Wow, I must have really typed that wrong. That wasn't the message I was trying to send at all.

I'm also amazed how people live and die about whether or not a baseball team wins or loses. People with that much passion about things always amaze me, as in, "wow", not as in, "how stupid". I really like the FR, but what WotC does to it either is something I can use or not, not something I get mad about. That's not to imply that either of us is right, just different in our level of passion. Personally, I have no problem with differences.

I don't judge others' hobbies, nor how passionate they are about them, even when they are judging mine (I always find it odd that the culture in MN praises people that buy $20K boats, sit in traffic, and catch a fish and throw it back as cool/good, but people that rolepay as bad - I would never judge another's hobby like that, nor their passion for it - I think as long as people are having fun and not hurting other people, more power to them).

 

[ki11erDM]

That seems to be the trend with unique settings and 4e thus far at least. Unfortunately so.

EDIT:
That comment was removed as it might have been construed as a personal attack so took it out. Ignore list should prevent that from happening again.

WotC has published one setting. One does not make a trend. But I suppose it is impossible for WotC to do anything that would fit into your idea of what D&D is, so I guess you assume everything they will publish in the future will just be FR remixed in a slightly different way.

/sigh

To OP:
I personally am running parts of RL in 4e right now, and it works great. So not so sure what your issue is.