Formian's Advocate: Understanding LN (merged)

[Nahat Anoj]

Formian's Advocate: Understanding LN

The CN thread really helped me get a good handle on what CN is and how it might work at the society level. While I feel like I have a better handle on LN, maybe I could learn a bit more!

It might be interesting to see what the folks in this thread think a LN society would be like... Would it go to the same potentially self destructive extreme that is being described by some for CN? Would their lawfulness be so complete as to reject any hint of individuality, consideration of circumstances in enforcing the laws, etc? Would we assume something out of star trek where roving enforcers automaticly execute for any rule violation? Would the distinction between it and lawful evil boil down to whether the denzins celebrated the executions or acepted them as the way life is?

Regarding the "rejection of individuality," I don't think LNs think about it that way - the phrase implies that individuality is valuable. Rather, I see them as saying that complete submission to authority/society/etc. is the best route to individual happiness and well-being. This is similar to the CN philosopher who says that unfettered individual liberties will lead to the betterment of society. Of course, in neither case do the philosophers advocate active promotion of these "benefits" - they just happen to be benign side effects of adhering to what's "really" important. As I said with CN, I'll also say here that such a belief smacks of ivory tower scholarship, wherein scholars debate ideals that may not function quite as well in reality.

Regarding consideration of circumstances in enforcing laws, I feel it could go either way. Certainly some crimes (such as those that subvert the social order on a wide scale) are more serious than others (such as those that have little to no impact on the larger social order), and I think LNs do distinguish between them. Indeed, I suspect LNs prefer to have lots of laws that codify the exact punishment for a certain crime. However, I can also see an LN society that has brutally harsh punishments by modern Western standards. I guess this is one of the things I'm hoping that others will flesh out a bit more for me.

Finally, regarding the disctinction between LE and LN and whether it focuses on celebrating executions or not, I guess in large part I think that summarizes my view fairly well. IMO, LNs will trust that the authorities made the correct decision. LNs may still be saddened, because the person no longer has the ability to join society and be productive, but I think by and large they'll believe that the person deserved his fate and move on.

 

[Celebrim]

It might be interesting to see what the folks in this thread think a LN society would be like... Would it go to the same potentially self destructive extreme that is being described by some for CN?

I think that CN 'societies' can really thrive. The biggest problem that they have is that without a moral center, when the society is put under pressure it comes to peices. CE societies don't thrive, but then again, they don't really care to. Thriving as a society is not thier goal, and indeed can be counterproductive to thier goals. So the biggest problem I see with CN is that its one step from the Abyss, pardon the pun.

Would their lawfulness be so complete as to reject any hint of individuality, consideration of circumstances in enforcing the laws, etc?

No. Again, no alignment assumes irrationality. Merely being lawful doesn't mean you have to have a Wisdom score of -6. Lawful societies are more prone to reject individuality, and they'll strongly reject certain types of individuality (deliberate attempts to undermine the society), but they don't reject the individual. They just place the needs of the society ahead of the individual on the grounds that they believe that no individual can thrive outside of society. They would see most claims of 'individuality' to be attempts to prey on the society in a parasitic fashion, enjoying its resources while contributing nothing back.

Would we assume something out of star trek where roving enforcers automaticly execute for any rule violation?

In some cases, although this is more likely to be an evil society than a merely lawful one if that's really the case. IMO, a good test on the good/evil axis is how you respond to the notion of 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' as a basis for justice. The original code was introduced to limit the scope of punishment. Evil societies tend to believe 'At least an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' The evil society believes that when insulted/afflicted, it is right and just and proper to payback with interest and meat hooks. Thus, 'A hand for a loaf of bread, a blow for a word, a life for a blow' tends to be its code of justice. The Neutral society tends to believe that punishment must be balanced, literally to 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' The good society tends to believe, emphasising mercy, 'At most an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' It holds that it is right and just and proper to refrain from paying back insults and afflications whenever it is possible, especially if they are affronts to your personal dignity and safety alone. (Affronts to the weak, innocent, or helpless is another matter.)

Would the distinction between it and lawful evil boil down to whether the denzins celebrated the executions or acepted them as the way life is?

In part.

I agree with Hussar that in most lawful societies, most individuals are happy to be a part of the community and willingly contribute to it. If you don't truly believe in the system, then you aren't lawful. Becoming a repressive police state is not the biggest danger a lawful society faces. Repressive police states tend to be instituted by chaotic evil types, because they are the ones that really need one. A lawful leader of a lawful community probably has few enemies within the community, especially if the community is homogeneous. I think that the biggest threat a lawful society faces is stagnation. When they have something that works, they are unwilling to change it. That's both a strength and a weakness (in the same way that a chaotic societies freedom is both its strength and its weakness). It's a strength because 'If its not broken, don't fix it' is a very rational attitude. It's a weakness because changing circumstance might cause a previously functional system to stop working, and its very hard to convince a lawful society (particularly a lawful neutral society) that there is any consideration (even utility) which is more important than the continuing observance of the law.

 

[WayneLigon]

Build a Lawful Neutral Society

It might be interesting to see what the folks in this thread think a LN society would be like... Would it go to the same potentially self destructive extreme that is being described by some for CN? Would their lawfulness be so complete as to reject any hint of individuality, consideration of circumstances in enforcing the laws, etc?

The phrase 'There oughta be a law...' is probably the most commonly heard phrase in this society

The LN society is, ultimately, the bureaucratic dream: a place for everything and everything in it's place. There is at least one law for everything imaginable and quite a few that aren't (Imaginary Law or laws for situations that don't exist yet would be an interesting occupation for someone). There is no concern for good or evil, but rather the law exists because there needs to be order. Order produces wealth, promotes growth, and provides a haven for those who cannot take care of themselves (though not through any particularly altruistic intentions; the more people who can contribute, the better off things are).

Now, for the most part this also produces a fairly Good society, at least outwardly. Crime is low. The streets are safe. Prices and taxes are probably very fair. Goods and services are efficient, orderly and generally available.

There is of course a dark side to this. Individual freedoms are virtually nonexistant and the line where the state/community ends and the individual begins is probably very blurred. It is mostly likey a caste society: you are born in a certain position and cannot rise from it save through the most extraordinary means, though you can fall. Everything you can do is regulated by the community at large and you as the individual have little say so save in that you can convince the community to adopt what you want.

It is very likely that everything from your job to your marriage and the number of kids you're allowed is set down by law, somewhere.

Tradition is almost smothering. Progress brings change and change brings disruption. There is progress of course but it is achingly small and slow, with each possible contingency being looked at over and over again to minimize disruption. Many ideas and inventions are simply shelved as 'too disruptive' for the general populace.

There are ceremonies and rituals for everything. Don't do them, and you're likely to be Shunned.

It is likely to be a very literate society, at least. Writing things down gives them a certain finality and weight, and that appeals to the LN mind. They will have fiction, songs and poetry, but with serious restrictions on subject matter. Mavericks, loners and heroes will not be honored and admired, but pitied; how can they know the peace and belonging that comes from getting up and knowing you will make the bread today, then come home to the wife and kids? Their fiction will be about clever plans that grow to fruition through devotion and patience. Their thrilling adventure stories will be about soldiers and generals overcoming men and nature rather than about rogue heroes who live by thier own code. They will have tragedies about people caught between two duties that are mutually antagonistc. Artistic styles will take decades or centuries to change. Society is seldom gripped by fads or swayed by public sentiment.

Because we're not talking about a LE society, the laws usually are not crushing burdens that breed rebels and resistance movements. They have few arbitrary laws that harm more people than they help or create gross injustices or imbalances. But 'mercy' as most societies know it is uncommon. Extenuating circumstances and loopholes have usually been considered, closed or patched with other laws over time, but the law can be harsh. There is a strong sense of 'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime'. Repeat deviants are not exiled until all other means have been exhausted.

There will be some arbitrary laws, weird little things that don't really harm people but can grossly inconveience outsiders, as well as picky little things that don't seem to make outward sense.

Even the most Lawful and strict of societies will have a safety valve, some kind of caste or job or area where deviations from the norm are overlooked. It's just not something that gets talked about. Those who enjoy the deviation period more than the period of being normal are asked to leave.

 

[WayneLigon]

Apparently we both started LN threads Could a mod merge them?

 

[Mistwell]

I know of two communities in southern California that I consider lawful neutral.

The first is Irvine, where urban planning was taken to an extreme, and all types of places were forced into "pods", which are groupings of locations. All fast food is located in the "Fast Food Pod", a single street filled with just fast food. All housing is in the housing pod. Dry cleaning is in the dry cleaning pod. Crime is low due to a heavy police presence and hgih cost of living keeping the riff-raff out.

The second is Santa Monica, where they have a law for everything and everything has a law, and they are all enforced. Their record keepers literally patrol businesses on a daily basis, checking for any violation of any of their thousands of business code laws. Even businesses that just have overflow offices in Santa Monica, and do not sell or buy anything at that location, are patrolled for business licenses and other licenses. Donations to the homeless are done by putting your money into publically run collection bins (disguised as dolphin statues) and distributed to the homeless later, and people are actively discouraged from donating directly to the homeless. Everything has a tax, all rental housing is rent controlled, and even jay walking is vigourously enforced. Most stop lights have cameras built in that take a picture of anyone running a light late, with a ticket automatically generated based on the license plate photographed.

Two totally different cities, but both seem lawful neutral to me.

 

[gizmo33]

Now, for the most part this also produces a fairly Good society, at least outwardly. Crime is low. The streets are safe. Prices and taxes are probably very fair. Goods and services are efficient, orderly and generally available.

This, like every other alignment issue, is based on circular logic. Crime is low because crime, by definition is something that goes against the law. The hidden connotation here is that "crime" = "bad things". In a Lawful Evil society, "crime" may very well mean doing good things.

Again, the streets aren't safe if you're an escaped slave. Prices and taxes are the same way - they're not "fair" simply because it's law - assuming "fair" means something like good.

So I only think that Law produces a "fairly Good" society because societies tend to define themselves that way by circular definition. Of course it's always the previous/other society's slavery, pollution, and violence that's objectionable, never yours.

That's the problem with using words like "Good" in an absolutist sense because I don't think there's ever been a society in history that's self-identified itself as "evil".

So the "Lawful" element in DnD IMO should be just that - Law. IMO it should not be tweaked in such a way that it confuses itself with "Good". Such a thing IMO is not in keeping with the intent of the design, nor IMO is it well supported by logic or philosophy.

 

[jgbrowning]

I'd classify most societies as lawful neutral. Obviously some exceptions, of course.

joe b.

 

[Mistwell]

I'd classify most societies as lawful neutral. Obviously some exceptions, of course.

joe b.

Really? I think a lot of societies vary.

I'd say for example that most towns in Hawaii are chaotic good or neutral good. Law enforcement is intentionally lax, because everyone is breaking low-level laws and most laws are only enforced if someone makes a report about it. But the sense of community is high and everyone looks out for the well-being of everyone else, and is relatively self-sacrificing.

For example - most homes on the beach put in stone or wooden stairs down to the ocean, even though installing stairs on the beach are illegal. And the purpose? So EVERYONE from the road can use them to get down to the ocean, and not just the home installing them. Pretty chaotic good or neutral good I think.

 

[Nightfall]

*four*

Hollowfaust is Lawful Neutral. At least inside the city limits.

 

[dmccoy1693]

The LN society is, ultimately, the bureaucratic dream ...

Prices and taxes are probably very fair. Goods and services are efficient

I liked alot of what you said, but I find the above to be... Not in total agreement. Bureacracies are notably inefficient as everything must be regularly checked and doubled checked and the checkers must be checked and the then there are random checks to keep the checker's checkers on their toes. There are reports the checkers have to file and statistics someone else has to come up with from the reports. Then the boss has to have a meeting to improve effiency. And all that is accomplished at that meeting is another meeting is scheduled where they will come up with a rough draft for the adjenda of the series of meetings that will improve effiency.

And to pay for all those checkers and meetings, you need taxes to go up. When taxes go up, wages have to go up to compensate. And when wages go up, so do prices.