Formian's Advocate: Understanding LN (merged)

[Rystil Arden]

lol, that is in fact what the original title was. However, I decided to change it to formians because modrons don't seem to play a big role in 3e, and I wanted to be hip with the kids .

I don't know. The 3e-reimagining of Formians is kind of lame for a LN exemplar. If anything, I'd say you're not formian a good opinion with that thread title

 

[DreadArchon]

Lawful Neutral as I see it:
(1) There should be procedures for most eventualities; if anything comes up for which there is not a procedure, handle it as best one can and then write a procedure based on that. This doesn't mean that procedures should be insufferably long and tedious (a "Modron headache"), but they should exist and be well-defined.

(2) Punishments for violations should be practical, neither retaliatory (such as execution for accidental manslaughter) or sympathetic (such as allowing a ten-year-old thief to get off easy because he's young and poor).

(3) Stability is important--"witch hunts" and other such public spectacles are for LG or LE, not LN.

(4) Individuality has nothing to do with anything (that a society of automatons tends to be LN does not make all LN's automatons). Citizens work towards maintaining order and citizens are habitual and predictable within their own personalities, but those personalities may vary greatly.

 

[Wik]

Lawful Neutral societies, to me, are Ancient Rome, or, to be even more alightment-based, Ancient China.

Both have a strong legal code that can be used to dictate the lives of the citizens. While Rome had a very cosmopolitan feel to it's legal system, China was all about "the individual is not as important as the state - giving into society" or something like that.

 

[JRR_Talking]

Because there is so much cost in keeping tradition and bueracracey (sp?) id say taxes are highest in a LN society. You are paying more for more visible results.


Its a a pity EN rules dont allow 'real world' religious debate cos many such things would be LN (even if they thought themselves LG)


I guess many LN folks, if you asked them, would say they were LG.

John

 

[Darkness]

Apparently we both started LN threads Could a mod merge them?

Sure.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Because there is so much cost in keeping tradition and bueracracey (sp?) id say taxes are highest in a LN society. You are paying more for more visible results.


Its a a pity EN rules dont allow 'real world' religious debate cos many such things would be LN (even if they thought themselves LG)


I guess many LN folks, if you asked them, would say they were LG.

John

With due respect to your example, many Lawful Evil sorts, if you ask them, will also say they are Lawful Good

 

[Kahuna Burger]

(4) Individuality has nothing to do with anything (that a society of automatons tends to be LN does not make all LN's automatons). Citizens work towards maintaining order and citizens are habitual and predictable within their own personalities, but those personalities may vary greatly.

I agree. In some LN societies, the individual could be seen as very important because of the interdependance built into the structure. I find myself thinking of the begining of Shanghai Noon, where Jackie's character drops his pike, ruining the intricate formation drill. You can see a spectacle like that as subsuming and negating individuality, or you could see from within it, that every single person is individually responsible for making it work and their effort must be sucessful or the attempt is a failure.

So, a LN society could be an anthill, where an individual drone may fail or die or get lost and they don't matter because the effort of the colony will press on, OR it could be a formation drill, where an individual is a crucial part of an interdependant whole and can feel personally proud of the final effort. (and will have people close to them who are personally proud of them as well as being proud of the overall success.) Either one is lawful, but their veiw of the individual is very different.

In the same way, a person in a lawful society may be oppressed by a lack of individual rights - or they may find that the structure of law allows them freedoms they might not be lucky enough to be able to fight for in a chaotic one. When the CN philosopher says "I would never give up my liberty for safety!" the LN citizen might look at them confused and say "My liberty is based in my safety from thugs who might not like what I am or choose to do." A traditionbound society where divergence from the social norms is not allowed, and a society with strong laws preventing the shunning of different religions and minority races (who conform to the religious and racially neutral societal rules) are equally Lawful.

 

[Nifft]

I see a great need for...

The Comprehensive Station Tax: Monthly (or annual) tax levied on each individual to certify their rights for the upcoming period. You can literally buy yourself a higher level of legal rights, or at least rent them. Records are kept; if you are found to have violated a law for which your station (at the time) did not permit you to violate, you will be fined or imprisoned.

Why? Because basically, people are hypocrites. We need to "get away" with a certain amount of stuff just to get by. This is the "slack" that holds the universe together. It seems like a LN society would have very little "slack" built in, though, so the ability to buy "slack" would need to exist... and I see no more LN way to divvy up "slack" than to sell it explicitly, on a monthly basis.

Other Implications of the Comprehensive Station Tax:
- Healthcare. Paid your station tax? You get certain healing priority at the Temple.
- Life Insurance. Your weregild value (or the punishment for your wrongful death) would be set by your currently registered station.
- Negative Rights. Serfdom could be implemented as a payment option, allowing feudal structures to exist alongside social mobility.
- Lifestyle Maintenance. From a game perspective, it could simplify resource tracking greatly, since a certain level of citizenship would exempt you from tolls, travel tariffs and the like, and possibly get you free personal sundries (i.e. hotel soap).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Why? Because basically, people are hypocrites. We need to "get away" with a certain amount of stuff just to get by. This is the "slack" that holds the universe together.

"The Slack is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."

 

[Razz]

lol, that is in fact what the original title was. However, I decided to change it to formians because modrons don't seem to play a big role in 3e, and I wanted to be hip with the kids .

After Dragon Magazine #354, I'd say they're on their way back...hopefully.