Fourward Path

[Garthanos]

To all those with empathy for the 4e design paradigm. How do you think 4e could have or should have been completed
AND how might it have progressed forward into a 5e that was loyal to that design we love.

 

[Garthanos]

A feature or two I would have liked to have seen completed.

• Afflictions mentioned in the players hand book.. and.... blink blink
• Martial Practices -> out of combat versatility for those who do not want the flavor of rituals introduced in MP2 and never to be heard of again.
• Boons and Grandmaster Trainings feel under fed (not a huge deal since magic items can convert)
• I would have like to see multi-role /multi-power source experiments like Berserk followed up on.
• Races that arent pointy ears on a human... like Centaurs.

 

[Garthanos]

None of my ideas lead to an edition 5 of any kind however

I know some look at the game 13th Age and feel there is heritage there.

 

[MoutonRustique]

As to 4e growth
There are so many things that could have been pushed further (of course, right now, I can't think of much of them... stupid brain...) but the big ones in my mind right now :

1. a further refinement of roles - especially the multi-role design of the [Berserker]
2. a further integration and development of long terms afflictions by use of the [disease track]
3. a further exploration of auras
4. more development of abilities similar to the [skald]'s healing aura (where the other characters expend the action)
5. more integration of SC into creature design - especially for solo design
6. an exploration system where environments are built in a manner similar to a mix between a foe and an SC - actually, more like traps were
7. ...certainly some other cool thing I'll think about right after I log out...

As to evolution
There are many things I would have liked to be in a 5e-from-4e that are actually in 5e... But many are missing also, and quite a few important parts were killed off (they were, obviously, right to do - as their objective wasn't to create a better game, it was to create a better-liked game - and it is!)
As to what I would've wanted from an evolution into a new edition:

• removal of the 'fiddly' bonuses
• better "human-facing" action economy system (this is where 4e could make the greatest gains in time-per-round-per-player)
• integration of 2 levels of complexity for the big "in-fiction-roles" : Strong Warrior, Magic Wielder, Healer Supporter. Something like having the Fighter and the Slayer for most "characters people want to play"
• integrated consideration for TotM
• a system of base class = How, and sub-class = What (i.e. the mechanics (how), the role you're meant to play (what)). There's no need to have every class be able to do every roll, but tying the role to a secondary choice would go a long way into freeing players into having their fluff and playing it too
• integration of companion characters into the core experience - this allows for easy integration of some 'old school' concepts, animal companions that are relevant and non-disruptive (same with summons), and helps for assumptions about NPC joining the party
• a system of exploration similar to what the SC wanted to be (I think) with "non-combat" environments getting "stats" similar to how traps work now
• more integration of rituals and a better cost-system for them
• re-working the magic item acquisition assumptions
• an evolution of the 'non-combat encounters' to work with (within) the same framework (with the same resources) as the combat encounters
• a more engaging approach to defeat for the players
• things to be kept : class relative power equivalency in all major areas of play, focus on character power over magic item power, characters do their thing from the start, tactically engaging encounters, narrative tools, ease on the DM side
• ... and something I'll think about when I log out...

 

[thanson02]

"Poking my head out of my slumbering cave"

As to 4e growth

• I agree with a further refinement of roles. I always felt that the class role should be tied into the build, not the whole class. However i think having multi-roles (one for the class and a sub-role for the build) would have worked well too.
• Core Concept clarification: There are a lot of things that work well in 4E and clearer communication on how each element works into the big picture (what is it's function in gameplay) would help a lot. For example: with players, many people when 4E came out were confused by character development because they thought it should have been like 3.5. If WotC would have stated from the beginning that Character development in 4E was based on a modular development system where there are a certain amount of class feature slots that needed to be filled and you have 6-12 options from a set amount of sources to choose from per slot instead of being locked into 1-2 from your class, people would have realized from the beginning what was going on.
• Expand Class concepts: Take the base idea for each class and make a variety of build options based on these concepts. Examples include fighters where their Mark ability reflects the theme of the build you are using or a Necromantic Artificer who is like Dr. Frankenstein.
• Clarification on how Skill Challenges can be used for social and exploration encounters for DMs who don't necessary want a combat focused game.

As to evolution

• Social Mechanics that make sense: this is one thing that I have had an issue with in every version of D&D. I was able to homebrew something that seems to be working well, especially with my Skill Challenges, but it is a work in progress.
• Cut the fat: There is a lot of bloat in 4E, rework the math to get rid of the unnecessary stuff.
• New approach to Races: Get rid of the Half-breeds and let all the races have the option of a Hybrid Race. This works the same as Hybrid Classes and then use the Bloodline Feats for trace elements of a third like how the Multiclass Feats work.
• In-depth guidelines for different story types for DMs: A guide on how to tell different story types (Mysteries, action adventure, etc) and general pointers on how to be an oral storyteller from professionals who make a living doing it.

Things I have been reflecting on as my players keep going up in level. They are just about to breech level 15 .

 

[rabindranath72]

In order of importance (to me):
- TotM
- Making feats optional (or at least a smaller number of them, and making them more relevant)
- Optional magic items
- Reduced level span

Most of these have been addressed in one way or another in 13A, which is now my go-to successor to 4e.

 

[Garthanos]

• a further exploration of auras
• more development of abilities similar to the [skald]'s healing aura (where the other characters expend the action)

This reminded me of getting special bonuses when you spend an action point within sight of a leader type ...

• more integration of SC into creature design - especially for solo design

• an exploration system where environments are built in a manner similar to a mix between a foe and an SC - actually, more like traps were
• ...certainly some other cool thing I'll think about right after I log out...

(I have been wondering what to do with skill challenges)
I am sure you will remember

As to evolution
There are many things I would have liked to be in a 5e-from-4e that are actually in 5e... But many are missing also, and quite a few important parts were killed off (they were, obviously, right to do - as their objective wasn't to create a better game, it was to create a better-liked game - and it is!)
As to what I would've wanted from an evolution into a new edition:

• removal of the 'fiddly' bonuses

Back in olden times I remember one of those complaints about D&D was advancement felt bumpy as hell .. you went what felt a long time then huge burst bump at level 2 you were suddenly twice as good in several ways. This might relate to where the fiddliness came from. Huge jumps sometimes makes you feel incompetent so if the advancement is related to what you already do? then this becomes a demo of how bad you were.

• better "human-facing" action economy system (this is where 4e could make the greatest gains in time-per-round-per-player)
• integration of 2 levels of complexity for the big "in-fiction-roles" : Strong Warrior, Magic Wielder, Healer Supporter. Something like having the Fighter and the Slayer for most "characters people want to play"

Variable character complexity can be a tricky thing to do well and keep the balance sane.

• integrated consideration for TotM
• a system of base class = How, and sub-class = What (i.e. the mechanics (how), the role you're meant to play (what)). There's no need to have every class be able to do every roll, but tying the role to a secondary choice would go a long way into freeing players into having their fluff and playing it too

I do like role flexibility arguably the 1e fighter could have done the minion cleaning job that wizards have in 4e

• integration of companion characters into the core experience - this allows for easy integration of some 'old school' concepts, animal companions that are relevant and non-disruptive (same with summons), and helps for assumptions about NPC joining the party

Yeah companions are very popular concepts to not be managed well. Arguably the very first Hero story Gilgamesh was Batman and Robin.

• a system of exploration similar to what the SC wanted to be (I think) with "non-combat" environments getting "stats" similar to how traps work now
• more integration of rituals and a better cost-system for them

Rituals being time and money/materia are arguably the most realistic/legendarily conformant magic system D&D has ever done

• re-working the magic item acquisition assumptions

Elric and Arthur need to be flanked by Lancelots and Beowulfs need support not just Perseus and the Atlantean super soldiers.
Players need explicit say in the relationship with them and there items and the amount their power is centered around them.

• an evolution of the 'non-combat encounters' to work with (within) the same framework (with the same resources) as the combat encounters
• a more engaging approach to defeat for the players

That could be very intriguing.

• things to be kept : class relative power equivalency in all major areas of play, focus on character power over magic item power, characters do their thing from the start, tactically engaging encounters, narrative tools, ease on the DM side
• ... and something I'll think about when I log out...

Yup most def

 

[Garthanos]

duplicate

 

[Garthanos]

"Poking my head out of my slumbering cave"

I am a spark personality I like poking the bear ... or lighting a fire for them whichever.

As to 4e growth

• I agree with a further refinement of roles. I always felt that the class role should be tied into the build, not the whole class. However i think having multi-roles (one for the class and a sub-role for the build) would have worked well too.
• Core Concept clarification: There are a lot of things that work well in 4E and clearer communication on how each element works into the big picture (what is it's function in gameplay) would help a lot. For example: with players, many people when 4E came out were confused by character development because they thought it should have been like 3.5. If WotC would have stated from the beginning that Character development in 4E was based on a modular development system where there are a certain amount of class feature slots that needed to be filled and you have 6-12 options from a set amount of sources to choose from per slot instead of being locked into 1-2 from your class, people would have realized from the beginning what was going on.
• Expand Class concepts: Take the base idea for each class and make a variety of build options based on these concepts. Examples include fighters where their Mark ability reflects the theme of the build you are using or a Necromantic Artificer who is like Dr. Frankenstein.
• Clarification on how Skill Challenges can be used for social and exploration encounters for DMs who don't necessary want a combat focused game.

Social Skill Challenges Yes!!!!!!!!!

As to evolution

• Social Mechanics that make sense: this is one thing that I have had an issue with in every version of D&D. I was able to homebrew something that seems to be working well, especially with my Skill Challenges, but it is a work in progress.

Getting me curious

• Cut the fat: There is a lot of bloat in 4E, rework the math to get rid of the unnecessary stuff.
• New approach to Races: Get rid of the Half-breeds and let all the races have the option of a Hybrid Race. This works the same as Hybrid Classes and then use the Bloodline Feats for trace elements of a third like how the Multiclass Feats work.
• In-depth guidelines for different story types for DMs: A guide on how to tell different story types (Mysteries, action adventure, etc) and general pointers on how to be an oral storyteller from professionals who make a living doing it.

Things I have been reflecting on as my players keep going up in level. They are just about to breech level 15 .

Love the race idea it would completely be in 4e design style without a doubt

 

[Garthanos]

In order of importance (to me):
- TotM

I flip flop a bit about that one myself sometimes I like the feeling there is a mechanic behind what we do but I may just handwave how I use it.

- Making feats optional (or at least a smaller number of them, and making them more relevant)

Just cannot imagine feeling the mechanics reflect my character without something akin to them.

Aspects from Fate might go a long way towards personalization with simpler character definitions.

- Optional magic items

definitely i like when the degree of a characters ability is personal vs otherwise is a defined choice.

- Reduced level span

Most of these have been addressed in one way or another in 13A, which is now my go-to successor to 4e.

Level span to me is mostly cosmetic... more levels can allow that faster rewards for the players effect which is something to consider I guess.
(of course back in the day there were fewer levels and massively slower advancement too this is not a tight bound thing)

I have definitely heard positive things about 13A.