D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[pemerton]

I mean, sure, 3e D&D borrowed a lot from Rolemaster, but, nowhere near enough to qualify as a sim game. It wasn't until all the 4e kerfuffle that D&D EVER got described as sim based.

I find the notion that 3E is a sim RPG laughable! Some parts of the system - the skill system, and the combat manoeuvre rules - are simulationist in basic outline. But even with the way skill DCs are set, there is a lot of departure from simulatinionism towards game-play supporting level-scaling.

And don't get me started on (so-called) "natural armour" bonuses!

 

[Hussar]

I find the notion that 3E is a sim RPG laughable! Some parts of the system - the skill system, and the combat manoeuvre rules - are simulationist in basic outline. But even with the way skill DCs are set, there is a lot of departure from simulatinionism towards game-play supporting level-scaling.

And don't get me started on (so-called) "natural armour" bonuses!

But, to hear it told back then, people were choosing D&D BECAUSE it was a sim game. Yet, funnily enough, once 5e came out, the whole D&D is sim thing went straight out the window. Almost like it was a completely fabricated criticism at the time. Funny that.

 

[Aldarc]

But, to hear it told back then, people were choosing D&D BECAUSE it was a sim game. Yet, funnily enough, once 5e came out, the whole D&D is sim thing went straight out the window. Almost like it was a completely fabricated criticism at the time. Funny that.

On a similar note, I would also point out that not only does Mearls in his Questing Beast interview say that WoW influenced 4e D&D but he also explicitly says it influenced 5e D&D. (But the nature of that influence in the case of 4e was exaggerated beyond what critics claim.)

 

[mamba]

But, to hear it told back then, people were choosing D&D BECAUSE it was a sim game. Yet, funnily enough, once 5e came out, the whole D&D is sim thing went straight out the window. Almost like it was a completely fabricated criticism at the time. Funny that.

it’s almost like they are ok with a certain level of simulation but do not want it thrown out completely

 

[mamba]

On a similar note, I would also point out that not only does Mearls in his Questing Beast interview say that WoW influenced 4e D&D but he also explicitly says it influenced 5e D&D. (But the nature of that influence in the case of 4e was exaggerated beyond what critics claim.)

got a timestamp for that? I do not recall him talking about WoW and 5e

 

[Aldarc]

got a timestamp for that? I do not recall him talking about WoW and 5e

I don't keep time stamps handy nor do I have time to rewatch the VOD looking for it. It's a brief mention when talking about designing 5e. He also talks about Game of Thrones.

 

[mamba]

I don't keep time stamps handy nor do I have time to rewatch the VOD looking for it. It's a brief mention when talking about designing 5e. He also talks about Game of Thrones.

Given that Mike had several interviews recently, which one are you talking about, the one with Questing Beast?

EDIT: I assume you are referring to is in the Questing Beast video at around 8:00. That is where he mentions WoW, LotR and GoT at least.

He says that without Pathfinder 5e would probably have looked like a cleaned up 3e/3.5, but PF already did that. Wargames and MtG were moving to simpler, more accessible rules. They were thinking of how to attract fans of WoW, LotR and GoT who do not know TTRPGs and decided to make the game as streamlined as they can, and how they spent a sizeable part of their budget on the Tiamat art to get people interested because ‘dragons are cool’.

 

[Aldarc]

Given that Mike had several interviews recently, which one are you talking about, the one with Questing Beast?

EDIT: I assume you are referring to is in the Questing Beast video at around 8:00. That is where he mentions WoW, LotR and GoT at least.

He says that without Pathfinder 5e would probably have looked like a cleaned up 3e/3.5, but PF already did that. Wargames and MtG were moving to simpler, more accessible rules. They were thinking of how to attract fans of WoW, LotR and GoT who do not know TTRPGs and decided to make the game as streamlined as they can, and how they spent a sizeable part of their budget on the Tiamat art to get people interested because ‘dragons are cool’.

And that's also the nature of influence that WoW had on 4e D&D.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Given that Mike had several interviews recently, which one are you talking about, the one with Questing Beast?

EDIT: I assume you are referring to is in the Questing Beast video at around 8:00. That is where he mentions WoW, LotR and GoT at least.

He says that without Pathfinder 5e would probably have looked like a cleaned up 3e/3.5, but PF already did that. Wargames and MtG were moving to simpler, more accessible rules. They were thinking of how to attract fans of WoW, LotR and GoT who do not know TTRPGs and decided to make the game as streamlined as they can, and how they spent a sizeable part of their budget on the Tiamat art to get people interested because ‘dragons are cool’.

I bet this must give some folks some real difficult cognitive dissonance, intentionally designing 5e to attract fans of WoW who do not know TTRPGs.

And that's also the nature of influence that WoW had on 4e D&D.

Exactly, but you bet your britches people will pull an Alexandrian and tell us that no no guys, dissociated mechanics WoW-fan-tempting design is good for 5e because it made the game accessible, but it was bad and the absolute antithesis of roleplaying itself in 4e because...uh...wow, look at the time!

 

[mamba]

And that's also the nature of influence that WoW had on 4e D&D.

there is not much influence on the design in either, but I’d say it was more than that in 4e’s case, the AEDU approach is closer than 5e’s retreat to the older editions imo