[FR] Everyone take a deep breath...

[Primitive Screwhead]

Kae'Yoss, I am confused.. which end of the argument are you on?

Upthread you stated multiple times that "Change isn't an all-or-nothing matter."

And then you draw an assumption like:

Plus, having to relearn to use magic, from scratch, should be of some concern for many adventurers.

For the adventuring character, possibly. For the player whose character now used 4E rules to cast spells and per-day, per-encounter, at-will abilities.. well, can't imagine the change will be more drastic than, say starting a character who uses the Incarnum.

Nothing fundamental has changed on Earth. gravity still draws things towards the center of the earth. The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west. Effect still follows cause. Time still goes from past to future.

And according to the snippets regarding 4E and the realms, gravity still draws things to the center of the planet, the sun still rises in the east and sets in the west. Effects still follow cause. Time still goes from past to future. Wizards still cast spells. Clerics still call upon gods for 'miracles'. ...

Yes, 4E will change the Realms, and Greyhawk, and Eberron, and Ravenloft.. just like 1E, 2E, 2E skills and powers, 3e, and 3.5e did.
Will that change be so overwhelming that the setting will become something completely different? I don't think so. I think the setting will show the changes that occur as time goes by...and with the 'points of light' concept I beleive that the idea of adventuring bands like the PCs will make a lot more sense.

YMMV

 

[PeterWeller]

Well, WotC doesn't. If they did, they wouldn't go to such lengths to make ingame excuses for the rules changes.

Oh please. Every change we know about can be directly attributed to the common complaints about the Realms, and you have no idea what lengths they are going to to make in game excuses for rules changes you don't know anything about. We actually know very little about what is changing in the Realms. Also, you didn't answer my question. I asked if you thought you couldn't run a pre-1385 campaign with 4E rules? I'll help you a little here with some alternate questions: Can you run a FR campaign using the GURPS rules? How about Mutants and Masterminds?

 

[see]

Well, I gave up on the Realms quite a while back because of the "Realms-Shaking Event of the Month" approach. Looks like more of the same from here.

 

[BlackMoria]

Primitive Screwhead wrote:

Yes, 4E will change the Realms, and Greyhawk, and Eberron, and Ravenloft.. just like 1E, 2E, 2E skills and powers, 3e, and 3.5e did.

It is the magnitude of the change. You stated you like Eberron and we know that Eberron is going to get a two year advancement in the time line.

Now, if Eberron got the magnitude of change the Realms is getting, try this:

The Eberron cosmology is completely revamped to conform with the 4e Cosmology. Planes are destroyed and swept away is how the retcon will explain the changes.

Magic fails the world over. Thousands of magewrights and mages die or go mad. Dragon shards rain down like meteors causing mass destruction as the Ring of Siberys flies apart. Magic based on dragonshards fails. Skyships crash. The magic holding Sharn towers up fails and most of the city is destroyed.

Whatever happened with the Mourning repeats. All countries adjacent to the Mournlands get enveloped with a sudden expansion of the Mournlands. Thousands dies. The very lands becomes mutable and the skies dance with azure fire the world over.

How do you like the Eberron campaign setting now? Is Eberron the same in light of the scenario above?

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

It is the magnitude of the change. You stated you like Eberron and we know that Eberron is going to get a two year advancement in the time line.

Now, if Eberron got the magnitude of change the Realms is getting, try this:

The Eberron cosmology is completely revamped to conform with the 4e Cosmology. Planes are destroyed and swept away is how the retcon will explain the changes.

I dunno - the retcon the cosmology of the Realms received in 3E was pretty major in my view. The 3E changes seem rather minor in comparison...

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

How do you like the Eberron campaign setting now? Is Eberron the same in light of the scenario above?

Yep, still sounds like Eberron to me. Especially if you add to the end of this: "and it's been 2 years since these events and they've managed to rebuild a number of airships, and most of Sharn. The people from the countries around Cyre mostly evacuated and have started up new countrires nearby. All magic based on dragonshards started working again."

Do airships still exist? Yep.
Is Xen'drik still there as a source of adventure? Yep.
Do the Dragonmarks still exist (or at least most of them)? Yep.
Did the Last War still happen? Yep.
Do Warforged still exist? Yep.

Sounds like Eberron to me. Just Eberron in the future with some changes. Same world, different events.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Upthread you stated multiple times that "Change isn't an all-or-nothing matter."

And then you draw an assumption like:

For the adventuring character, possibly. For the player whose character now used 4E rules to cast spells and per-day, per-encounter, at-will abilities.. well, can't imagine the change will be more drastic than, say starting a character who uses the Incarnum.

That's rules changes, not setting changes. Of course, the 4e Realms will see both, in extreme forms.

And according to the snippets regarding 4E and the realms, gravity still draws things to the center of the planet, the sun still rises in the east and sets in the west. Effects still follow cause. Time still goes from past to future. Wizards still cast spells. Clerics still call upon gods for 'miracles'. ...

The Weave is no longer part of the Realms. Gods know what's with the Shadow Weave. Lots of characters, locations, and deities will be gone or quite different. Races will probably change significantly, and not just in rules. The Cosmology is different. The tone of the whole campaign changes.

Will that change be so overwhelming that the setting will become something completely different? I don't think so.

I do. It will become quite different from what it is now. On the other hand, it will no longer be much different from core D&D, so I guess you're right in a way.

and with the 'points of light' concept I beleive that the idea of adventuring bands like the PCs will make a lot more sense.

I always thought that adventuring made perfect sense in the Realms.

 

[The Little Raven]

I dunno - the retcon the cosmology of the Realms received in 3E was pretty major in my view. The 3E changes seem rather minor in comparison...

It's most amusing to me that they went and gave the Realms a unique cosmology (The Great Tree, The Mountain, and the River of Blood) just to get rid of it a few years later in order to make it coincide with the core cosmology.

 

[True_Blue]

Yep, still sounds like Eberron to me. Especially if you add to the end of this: "and it's been 2 years since these events and they've managed to rebuild a number of airships, and most of Sharn. The people from the countries around Cyre mostly evacuated and have started up new countrires nearby. All magic based on dragonshards started working again."

Do airships still exist? Yep.
Is Xen'drik still there as a source of adventure? Yep.
Do the Dragonmarks still exist (or at least most of them)? Yep.
Did the Last War still happen? Yep.
Do Warforged still exist? Yep.

Sounds like Eberron to me. Just Eberron in the future with some changes. Same world, different events.

Say those changes BlackMoria mentioned *didnt* happen, but those ones you tic'd off did happe, now is it Eberron?

Basically you chose a criteria that you evaluate something as Eberron and say if its there, than that is Eberron. Maybe other ppl did this with FR, but those are the things that are changed.. now they dont see it as FR,

Again, say now Warforged have all been hunted down and killed, Xendrick has been massively flooded leaving it as barely there, dragonmarks have all but died down to one race - half-orcs, and airships have faultered because the elemtnal magic has stopped working because magic works now different in Eberron(because of a change to make it go along with 4e as an example). Is this Eberron to you?

You pick out certain pieces you see, others have done so with FR.. you cant fault ppl for thinking of certain things that define a setting.

If I look at America and rename each city as a FR city, it doesnt make it all of a sudden FR because I renamed the cities. There are a lot of elements that have to be there that identify it as a certain setting.

 

[Badkarmaboy]

D&D and FR could have been updated with out changing everything. I expecdt there are two reasons: 1. To sell more books that have been dumbed down for a broader market base. 2. For the wotc owners to make it their game and remove Gygax and Arnson from the picture.

To many changes many of which are not logical and certainly not welcome will keep me from buying wotc's new game. And why buy 4e and adapt it to the 3e FR? Better to show our displeasure and not buy any 4e products.

I love how trying to appeal to a broader market based = "dumbed down". Certainly, wanting more people to play the game means you have to appeal to all the mouth breathers out there.

Also, I hate to say it but (correct me if I'm wrong) Arneson and Gygax have had nothing to do with D&D since WOTC bought it. It's been wotc's game since they saved it from TSR.

There are much better "wotc-as-the-antichrist" arguments out there.