[FR] Sun Elves as evil or neutral instead of good?

[Angcuru]

An elf f*cking a kobold?!?!?!

THAT'S JUST NOT RIGHT!!!

 

[Dark Jezter]

So, is the stuff in the parenthesis supposed to be racial appelations or what?

I said that "dark elf" gets applied to drow, rightly, virtually all of the time, so that scan doesn't necessarily prove or disprove anything. I'm just saying there can be drow who aren't dark elves, and dark elves who aren't drow. Most drow still are dark elves.

Dalamar of Krynn, as an example (sorry, can't scan a page in) is called "Dark elf" several times.

Krynn is not Faerun.

 

[Alzrius]

People seem to think it matters, in the purpose of this discussion, that I pointed out a Krynnish example. It doesn't matter, because what I was talking about isn't Realms-specific; its a tangent discussion from a topic about something that is Realms-specific (the whole sun elf thing).

As Angcuru said, dark elves = any evil elves, whereas drow = Subrace of subterranean Elves with evil tendencies.

'nuff said.

 

[Angcuru]

What he said.

 

[Skarp Hedin]

Alzrius said:

As Angcuru said, dark elves = any evil elves, whereas drow = Subrace of subterranean Elves with evil tendencies.

'nuff said.

Can you back that up with any citations? I don't mean to be goofy here, but all through this thread you've insisted that sun elves are Chaotic Good because published sources have established their Chaotic Goodness.. You may be very right that in the Faerunian context, "dark elf" means any evil elf and that since most drow are evil, they are also dark elves (along with evil sun, moon, wild, etc elves). However, I've read a lot of FR material myself, and while I haven't got an amazing mastery of the material.. I don't remember reading that anywhere.

It's pretty clear that as far as D&D is concerned, you have one alignment which governs your ethical and moral outlook, and is governed by them in turn. There's no moral relativism in D&D, since you are either evil, and thus damaged by holy weapons, etc.. or you are not. You can't be good to elves and evil to humans, or good to elves and neutral to humans without this being reflected in your alignment.

I haven't read everything out there, no.. but sun elves always seemed mightly lawful to me.

 

[Aaron L]

Actually, going as far back as the 1E Monster manual, the evil dark skinned elves were called dark elves, before they were ever called drow.

 

[Alzrius]

Can you back that up with any citations? I don't mean to be goofy here, but all through this thread you've insisted that sun elves are Chaotic Good because published sources have established their Chaotic Goodness.. You may be very right that in the Faerunian context, "dark elf" means any evil elf and that since most drow are evil, they are also dark elves (along with evil sun, moon, wild, etc elves). However, I've read a lot of FR material myself, and while I haven't got an amazing mastery of the material.. I don't remember reading that anywhere.

I didn't mean that just in a Faerunian context, I meant in D&D. The Dragonlance stuff is by far the most forthcoming with this. I know that gets mentioned in some FR product somewhere, but for the life of me I can't think of where. I vaguely recall it had something to do with how the drow, before the Crown Wars, were not called dark elves, but had that title applied to them en masse after becoming evil as a whole (the implication was that this was a term handed out before to other evil elves). Ergo, evil elves are called dark elves (and that example doesn't mean that that only applies to drow specifically, since that makes no logical sense). Also, some of the old crossover material between DL and FR backed that up.

It's pretty clear that as far as D&D is concerned, you have one alignment which governs your ethical and moral outlook, and is governed by them in turn. There's no moral relativism in D&D, since you are either evil, and thus damaged by holy weapons, etc.. or you are not. You can't be good to elves and evil to humans, or good to elves and neutral to humans without this being reflected in your alignment.

You're absolutely right, which is why I hold that sun elves are, indeed, CG. They don't actively kill humans...they just don't want anything to do with them, etc.

I haven't read everything out there, no.. but sun elves always seemed mightly lawful to me.

Well, I never thought so, but those things are subject to personal interpretation, which is why we're lucky enough to have the answer spelled out in type for us in the rulebooks.

 

[Dark Jezter]

Well, I never thought so, but those things are subject to personal interpretation, which is why we're lucky enough to have the answer spelled out in type for us in the rulebooks.

Except I can't find any 3E FR publications that explicitly state that sun elves are chaotic good. The Player's Handbook and Monster Manual say that elves are usually chaotic good, but FR elves are different than the default D&D elves, and not just in height. Races of Faerun (and to a lesser extent, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) list the attributes of the various elf subraces, but no alignments are given.

FR Elves aren't the only races that are different from their default D&D counterparts, though. Monsters of Faerun includes Faerunian dwarves (but oddly enough, no elves), and it lists the typical alignments of each dwarf subrace. Such as...

Shield Dwarf: Usually lawful good
Gold Dwarf: Usually lawful good
Duergar: Usually lawful evil
Arctic Dwarf: Usually lawful neutral.
Urdunnir: Usually neutral
Wild Dwarf: Usually lawful neutral.

Now, if it's possible for the dwarves to have such varied alignments, can't elves be the same way?

EDIT: Added in the part about dwarves.

 

[Gez]

I vaguely recall it had something to do with how the drow, before the Crown Wars, were not called dark elves, but had that title applied to them en masse after becoming evil as a whole (the implication was that this was a term handed out before to other evil elves).

Actually, they have always been dark elves, just like wood elves have always been green elves. Their skin color has always been dark, even before the curse (well, you may find conflicting canon about this point, since in one version they were fair skinned before and were turned to obsidian skin as the mark of their treachery; but accepted canon said they simply were cursed to flee from the sunlight and the surface, and have always been jetblack).

What they have become is drow -- they had other wonky names before, like ssri-tel'quessir or ilythiiri, but they were not drows. They became drows when they were cursed, as a shortcut for dhaeraow, traitor.

 

[Blacknight]

I view it this way:

Sun elves are elitist snobs but on the whole good intentioned so Chaotic Good is fine (The Eldreth Veluuthra are extremeists so i wouldn't use them as an example of Sun elven attitudes)

Moon elves are elitist too but more willing to interact with other races

Wild elves are isolationist and distrust all other races including other races of elves

Wood elves or Copper elves are somewhere between Moon elves and Wild elves

There are ALWAYS exceptions.
1) Sememmons lover, Ashemmi is an elf....
2) Drizzt Do'urden is a drow......