[FR] Sun Elves as evil or neutral instead of good?

[Gez]

Alzrius > The excerpt you posted says they originally had "dark" skin, but it also says they were "cursed into their present appearance."

No, I simply said there was conflicting canon. The canon that said they were fair-skinned before had been obsoleted in 2e. If you look at the Realms in their current incarnation, and in its 2e version, the dark elves have always been dark elves -- dark skinned elves. Just like green elves have always been green elves, for their greenish skin tone.

Alzrius > Given that curse, they must have looked different to begin with. So, they had dark skin before, but nothing compared to how they looked after they were cursed, so then we know "dark elves" couldn't always have applied to them as a specific subrace.

Actually, they were cursed to flee the light of the surface. If that changed something to their physical aspect, it would be at most the eyes.

Alzrius > Now, given that when that happened, when they were cursed, they became drow, it doesn't make sense for them to also have a second racial term...but makes far more sense that they'd just be given the title of any evil elf, "dark elf".

It all makes sense when you consider they always have been dark elves, and have been given the moniker "drow" for their betrayal; rather than the reverse.


As for sun elves, the topic at hand... The book say nothing actually on their alignment. One may assume from the fact elves are, by default, chaotic good; but elves behave, by default, in ways that are quite different from those listed for the sun elves in Races of Faerûn and previous sources.

As an aside, wasn't Xan, the depressive elf wizard with a moonblade in Baldur's Gate (first episode, found in Mulahey's cave), a sun elf ? He was lawful neutral. (And, as a fighter, a total waste of a nifty magic sword.)

 

[Fenes 2]

I would hold the NPCs to the same standard as the PCs: Their actions dictate their alignment, not vice-versa. If the gold elves are racist and elitist, then they will not be considered good anything in my campaign.

IMC, I don't have "good races" - most individual elves, dwarves, humans etc. are neutral, not good or evil.

 

[Sixchan]

Of course they are not canon.

They were not meant seriously at all.

However, I believe Forrester, Phasmus, Darwin, William and others gave a very serious depth to some of what happened.

If they were canon, everyone would not be discussing (both here and on the WOTC boards) how bigoted and racist and evil Gold Elves are!!!

(chuckles - if I read that the Forgotten Realms of the three IRs were canon, I would put down the FRCS, quite sure I was hallucinating.)

Personally, I think its High Time someone at WotC canonised the IRs. There could be an entire book made out of the thing, and with the addition of Past history, would make a nice "Timeline of Faerun" book or "Future of Faerun" without it.



As to playing a drow, yep, I'm always up to that. Especially the "ON YOUR KNEES LESSER PRIESTESS" part, and especially if she's of the Bondage-Goth-Lesbian type.

Come to think of it, why have I never seen Elf-porn on the internet?

 

[SylverFlame]

For those looking for a book that relates the idea of "dark elves" not necessarily being drow, see the Complete Book of Elves, 2e. I realize it is not FR, but it does refer on occasion to the above mentioned quandry.

EDIT: For Edena, I am not up on my acronyms. IR = ?
I feel I should know this, but it is the middle of the exam schedule, my brain is around about the consistency of mashed potatoes or tapioca. Thanks.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

If you took the IR as canon, then you'd be taking my interpretation of Torilian elves as canon also.
My version of Torilian elves is a slight variant on the canon version:

Sun Elves:

Sun elves appear as tall, slim, very handsome or very beautiful humans, with a mildly fey twist thrown in to the lot.
Their ears are like ours, except they are pointed (they are not great long stick affairs, but then they are more inhuman than vulcan ears.)
Their faces are soft and friendly, with the tilt of their ears, the shape of their eyes, and certain other subtle aspects of their faces giving them away as inhuman.
Sun elves are bright yellow in color - a radiant yellow that almost seems to glow on it's own, and which is very aestetically pleasant to look at.
Sun elves have hair of a darker yellow (maize), typically straight or wavy. Their other body hair is also of this darker variety.

Sun elves think much like human beings do (they ARE called demihumans for a reason), and their behavior tends to vary from elf to elf like it varies from human to human.
However, there are differences in sun elves, unique traits to their personalities that show their innate inhuman nature.

They are far, far, far more reverent of life than humankind is. This reverence for life shows up in everything they do, in their moral and ethical codes, in their religion, in their culture and society, in their laws, and even in their behavior in extremis.
They are even more reverent of elven life (including half-elven life), to the point of it being an extraordinary thing for a sun elf to harm or wish harm upon another elf or half-elf.
They are obsessive. They can and do obsess on one subject, and this obsession can continue for decades or even centuries.
They are innately shy. A shyness that evolved from millennia of threats from other sentient life forms - gold elves are instinctively cautious and careful around all non-elves, appreciating in a primordial sense the danger others represent.
They are extraordinarily emotional (like the Romulans are extraordinarily emotional.) Although this emotion rarely manifests in violence, it most certainly manifests itself in other ways, with creativity being one of the most outstanding manifestations.
Sun elven adolescents, like all elven adolescents, are even more emotional than the adults are.
Sun elves are curious beings. More curious than humans are. Less curious than any other kind of elf is.

It is generally thought that gold elves are bigoted, racist, and elitist. Indeed, many think of them as being an evil or almost evil people.
However, this is the result of centuries of propaganda spread by humans and humanoids who desire harm to all elves, and it is absolutely untrue.

What IS true is that sun elves and humans rarely get along.
But then, most humans rarely get along with other humans, so it is not difficult to understand that humans might not get along with sun elves.

 

[Black Omega]

EDIT: For Edena, I am not up on my acronyms. IR = ?
I feel I should know this, but it is the middle of the exam schedule, my brain is around about the consistency of mashed potatoes or tapioca. Thanks.

I'm not Edena but I can comment IR=Industrial Revolution.

 

[Cernunnos]

To my way of understanding, it was always quite clear in the Dragonlance stuff that Dark Elf = evil. There WERE no drow or black skinned elves. There were in one adventure (kind of a cheat, because they came from another plane/prime world, and the pc's met them in a demiplane). But the point is, in DL, if you say "dark elf," you mean "evil elf who has been exiled."
In Forgotten Realms, it means "drow." There are a ton of citations for this, though it leaves it open to whether they were called the precursor to the word (dhaoew or something like it) because they had black skin or because they'd turned away from the Seldarine. I think there are inconsitencies, because I seem to remember some passages referring to them as having black skin pre-Crown Wars, and being cursed w/ it after the exile, and other with them having that color BEFORE the war. Read Evermeet: Island of the Elves by Cunningham, since it goes into the Crown Wars a bit, where the drow are banished from the surface. Regards, in modern Realms, an evil elf is not called a "dark elf." Find me one citation where Eliath Craulnober is called a "dark elf," since he is the only evil elf I can think of off that top of my head (along w/ Jander Sunstar, who wasn't quite evil, just a vampire). Also those elves in the Eldreth Veluthraa that appear in Elfshadow.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

IR refers to a thread that occurred on this board more than 2 years ago.
The thread predessumed that the gnomes had started an industrial revolution in parts of Faerun, and that this industrial revolution was just starting to really get going.
And I asked, what would your character do, now that he or she is seeing factories, railroads, and other 19th century items going upon in places like Calimshan, Chondath, Mulhorand, and in isolated places elsewhere?

The question and answers to it - then the counteranswers to the answers, then the counter-counter-answers, and the resulting story (the thread in it's total) was here on RPG General.

IR stands for Industrial Revolution. The IR thread was the 1st Industrial Revolution thread.
It was not a game, per se. It was very much like a story, being told as participants wished to tell it, with me loosely arbitrating things when I saw that the answers to my question were forming an actual cohesive story.

As you can see from my posts above, Faerun was altered beyond recognition in that story.
The impetus created by the gnomes and their inventions in Faerun caused a chain reaction which was every bit as life changing and world changing as the real Industrial Revolution of Earth in the 1800s.

 

[Alzrius]

No, I simply said there was conflicting canon. The canon that said they were fair-skinned before had been obsoleted in 2e. If you look at the Realms in their current incarnation, and in its 2e version, the dark elves have always been dark elves -- dark skinned elves. Just like green elves have always been green elves, for their greenish skin tone.

Actually, they were cursed to flee the light of the surface. If that changed something to their physical aspect, it would be at most the eyes.

You don't seem to have understood what I meant when I mentioned yoru "excerpt". You scanned a page from Races of Faerun and posted it here, remember? That scanned page says that while they originally had dark skin, that they were also "cursed to their current appearance". Given that, they had to look different before from how they appear now, which means they didn't have ebon skin and white hair. Since it doesn't mention that any specific change, their is no reason to assume its just a small thing like the eyes (especially since a change to just the eyes is hardly changing their entire "appearance").

It all makes sense when you consider they always have been dark elves, and have been given the moniker "drow" for their betrayal; rather than the reverse.

Except nothing explicitly says that they have always been called dark elves. Why would they be, when they called themselves Ssri'Tel'Quessir or whatever.

As for sun elves, the topic at hand... The book say nothing actually on their alignment. One may assume from the fact elves are, by default, chaotic good; but elves behave, by default, in ways that are quite different from those listed for the sun elves in Races of Faerûn and previous sources.

That's because alignment is a guideline, not a restriction, there is room for differences in action for CG creatures. Simply put, acting "different" is no reasoning for a wholly different alignment.

As an aside, wasn't Xan, the depressive elf wizard with a moonblade in Baldur's Gate (first episode, found in Mulahey's cave), a sun elf ? He was lawful neutral. (And, as a fighter, a total waste of a nifty magic sword.)

Hey, Drizzt Do'urden is, what, NG? That doesn't mean all drow are that alignment. Same goes for Xan in Baldur's Gate.

 

[Fenes 2]

Well, imho, empire building - actually, building any society more complex than a tribe - is pretty much impossible for a generally chaotic people. The sheer fact that elves had vast countries with big cities - and the neccessary governement - pushes them into neutral territory.

But then, pretty much everyone is generally neutral imho.