[FR] Sun Elves as evil or neutral instead of good?

[Gez]

Except nothing explicitly says that they have always been called dark elves. Why would they be, when they called themselves Ssri'Tel'Quessir or whatever.

And what if ssri-tel'quessir is elven for dark elf ? I believe it's the case (sorry, no attachment this time, I don't have the books with me today).

Hey, Drizzt Do'urden is, what, NG? That doesn't mean all drow are that alignment. Same goes for Xan in Baldur's Gate.

Drizzt is an exception. We have what, 9+ books explaining why he's an exception. However, I wasn't trying to use Xan as a solid proof that all sun elves are lawful; I just gave an example -- more valid for the Realms, IMO, than your example about a Krynnish elf being called dark elf.

Really, sun elves have always been described in a way that put them seriously at odd with a chaotic good alignment. From this point on, we may have four different attitudes:

• Ditch the alignment system entirely;
• Give the sun elves an alignment compatible with their behavior (lawful neutral);
• Give the sun elves a behavior compatible with chaotic goodness (which means ignoring and rewriting nearly all the background about them); or
• Engage in a contest of lawyerism and hypocrisyto hammer a lawful evil behavior into a chaotic good jacket, happily destroying by the way the universal rules of D&D alignment.

I'm in favor of solution 2, because it's really the simplest. Solution 3 would be probably better overall, but that's too much work, and too much retconning.

 

[Alzrius]

And what if ssri-tel'quessir is elven for dark elf ? I believe it's the case (sorry, no attachment this time, I don't have the books with me today).

Nothing outrightly says that, AFAIK. It's their name for themselves...or at least it was, I dont know if it still is, but where does it says thats the elven word for dark elf?

Drizzt is an exception. We have what, 9+ books explaining why he's an exception. However, I wasn't trying to use Xan as a solid proof that all sun elves are lawful; I just gave an example

Which means he's an exception, just like Drizzt is.

more valid for the Realms, IMO, than your example about a Krynnish elf being called dark elf.

The discussion on sun elven alignment and the discussion on the dark elf monikor are two different debates (albeit in the same thread); don't mix the two...its confusing enough as it is. A sun elf in a game that is Lawful has nothing to do with the whole thing about dark elves.

Really, sun elves have always been described in a way that put them seriously at odd with a chaotic good alignment.

That's just your opinion Gez. I don't think their actions are that deviant from their CG alignment

From this point on, we may have four different attitudes:

• Ditch the alignment system entirely;
• Give the sun elves an alignment compatible with their behavior (lawful neutral);
• Give the sun elves a behavior compatible with chaotic goodness (which means ignoring and rewriting nearly all the background about them); or
• Engage in a contest of lawyerism and hypocrisyto hammer a lawful evil behavior into a chaotic good jacket, happily destroying by the way the universal rules of D&D alignment.

I'm in favor of solution 2, because it's really the simplest. Solution 3 would be probably better overall, but that's too much work, and too much retconning.

Those "choices" are so colored by where you're coming from. It presumes that sun elves' alignment isn't compatible with their behavior, which is itself an opinion, so the premise behind that "list" becomes faulty, rendering options 2 & 3 meaningless. Option 1 is ludicrous (and is the real way of "destroying the universal rules of D&D alignment"). And option 4 is basically name-calling against people who point out that this entire thing is just your personal stance on this.

 

[Arnwyn]

I'm in favor of solution 2, because it's really the simplest. Solution 3 would be probably better overall, but that's too much work, and too much retconning.

You can do whatever you want for your particular campaign. I'm sure you don't need any members to "validate" your decision...

 

[Dark Jezter]

Nothing outrightly says that, AFAIK. It's their name for themselves...or at least it was, I dont know if it still is, but where does it says thats the elven word for dark elf?

The drow still refer to themselves as the Illythiari, which is what they were known as before the Seldarine cursed them into their present state.

Everyone else just refers to them as drow, which is derived from the elven word for "traitor." I don't know what the translation for ssri-tel'quessir means.

While on this subject, in every single Forgotten Realms novel I've read and every FR suppliment I've looked at, dark elves always drow. I've never seen the term dark elf used to refer to evil-aligned elves of other subraces. Even good-aligned drow are still referred to as dark elves. This is why I believe that in FR, dark elf is just another name for drow. Things may be different on Krynn, I wouldn't know, as I've never read Dragonlance.

 

[SylverFlame]

OT

Thanks Edena and Black Omega. Sounds like fun happy times for all.

 

[William Ronald]

Perhaps one approach to the Sun Elves would be to have a series of conflicting traditions. Some may lean towards a more noble and egalitarian ideal fitting with a Chaotic Good alignment, while others may lean more towards a Lawful Neutral or even evil alignment.

The various Sun Elf cultures could have struggled between these extremes at different times. I have found some of the portrayals of Sun Elves to not present them in the best light. So, they may have had periods of moral decadence which was ended by a time of repentence. (Perhaps the Sun Elves are still trying to figure out who they are. They are gifted, but the question is how to use those gifts: in service to the world or only to themselves, or somewhere between the extremes?) Perhaps some leader can inspire the Sun Elves to their true potential or lead them into darkness. (Sounds like a job for the PCs.)

The IRs were a lot of fun. I think to some extant my actions were impacted by those of the previous IRs. Curiously, the elves of Oerth were more reasonable in the IR than their Torillian kin. Black Omega, creamsteak, and Alyx (has anyone seen him n the boards) portrayed the elves as capable of light heartedness, compassion, and courage in defense of their homes. In particular, Alyx's portrayal of the elven determination to defend and avenge the kingdom of Celene was well written. I think, in general, many of the players looked back on the portrayal of elves from such sources as Tolkien, Celtic and Norse myth, and various legends. (Black Omega's PC may have often seemed flighty but I would not want to play a character on the sharp end of her sword.)

It has been mentioned that a new FR book, combining elements of the FRCS and the Epic Level Handbook, will be released next year. Perhaps this book might be a good opportunity to address some of the issues concerning Sun Elves and other elven subraces. For the present, I think players will have to decide what visions of the Sun Elves and other races best fits their ideas of the Realms. (Or as I like to say, a campaign setting is your world -- do with it as you will.)

 

[Black Omega]

The IRs were a lot of fun. I think to some extant my actions were impacted by those of the previous IRs. Curiously, the elves of Oerth were more reasonable in the IR than their Torillian kin. Black Omega, creamsteak, and Alyx (has anyone seen him n the boards) portrayed the elves as capable of light heartedness, compassion, and courage in defense of their homes. In particular, Alyx's portrayal of the elven determination to defend and avenge the kingdom of Celene was well written. I think, in general, many of the players looked back on the portrayal of elves from such sources as Tolkien, Celtic and Norse myth, and various legends. (Black Omega's PC may have often seemed flighty but I would not want to play a character on the sharp end of her sword.)

Lord knows I was influenced by Tolkien, Norse and Neil Gaimen's Books of Magic when it came to elves and Seelie. Maybe my PC was flighty, but it was fun adding a little light heartedness to an otherwise very serious game. And it made for a great story.

I don't see that a feeling of superiority means Sunelves -must- be Lawful, or Evil, though some of them certainly sound that way.

If I ever did a Sun Elf I think it would be fun to play a character with that superiority complex and a sense of noblesse oblige. Yes, I'm superior, thus I must protect and help those weaker and inferior. Annoying attitude but good actions.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

In the case of the 1st and 2nd IR, the sun elves of Evermeet went from being very much like canon sun elves, to being something totally new and different.
They went the gamut from one extreme to the other. From a Haldir battling Lurtz situation to a Haldir being buddies with Lurtz situation (and vice versa, Lurtz to Haldir.)

The OTHER elves of Toril, who were resurrected in the great ritual of the Church of Toril, remained more like canon elves.
However, seeing the dominance of the United Commonwealth of Toril, the Humanoid League, Zouron's Magocracy, the Eternal Union, Hope Isle, and other places alien to everything they had known, many got up and left the Crystal Sphere.
Those that stayed, made a point of integrating themselves into the new systems. Some were better than others at adapting to the colossal change.

 

[Gez]

I don't see that a feeling of superiority means Sunelves -must- be Lawful, or Evil, though some of them certainly sound that way.

It doesn't. But sun elves have these two problems. Pompous pretention, while annoying, is quite stereotypical of elves in D&D. Personally, I think it's a great way to make them a source of comic relief -- you know, the vain and arrogant wanker with the mentality of a spoiled brat, and that refuse to recognize he's just being ridiculous -- but you know I'm more annoyed than lightened by constant comic relief.

The real problem is the melnibonoldorelf syndrom. On one side, they are given lots of enthousiasticly munchkin material for rabid fans (Complete Book of Elves, frex), because it's kewl; and on the other side, they are depicted as a grandiose and tragic, dark and brooding race, because it's kewl. Elves ends up being melnibonoldorelves because it's übersuperduperkewl.

And when you find people who use the "kewl" word annoying, you are even more annoyed by übersuperduperkewl material. Frankly, I could quote passages from the Fall of Myth Drannor, and you'll have trouble to find anything chaotic or good (I'm not even asking about finding them both, just at least one) in gold elven behavior. Unless your perception of alignment is really at odds with mine.

 

[Dark Jezter]

The real problem is the melnibonoldorelf syndrom. On one side, they are given lots of enthousiasticly munchkin material for rabid fans (Complete Book of Elves, frex), because it's kewl; and on the other side, they are depicted as a grandiose and tragic, dark and brooding race, because it's kewl. Elves ends up being melnibonoldorelves because it's übersuperduperkewl.

Ugh, I know what you mean, Gez. I recently got a chance to take a look at The Complete Book of Elves, and it portrayed elves in such a perfect light you'd think that it was written by the Eldreth Veluthraa.

They could have easily shortened down the book to just a single sentance and it would be basically the same... "Anything humans can do, elves can do better, and with infinately more kewlness."