[FR] Sun Elves as evil or neutral instead of good?

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ok, let's try this again.

It is well for me that my first exposure to elves was as a child.
Said elves were Santa Elves, and there is little question that Santa Elves are Good Aligned (although I suspect the economists would disagree with me there.)

My next exposure to elves were the Noldorian elves of Rivendell in the Hobbit.
They also, were of Good alignment.
They certainly were frivolous and frolicking in nature (anyone who sings what they sang as dwarves come walking along, is being frivolous, in my opinion.)

It is well for me that these were the two first encounters, for first impressions are the strongest, and the rest of the impressions I have received have been less than appetizing.
Had my first exposure to elves been the way they are portrayed in Forgotten Realms, in Dragonlance, in Dark Sun, or in any of a number of other settings or books, I'd think like Forrester does about them. (That is to say, I'd think the only Good elf was a dead elf.)

Gold elves, in Forgotten Realms, are as unreasonable and harsh as the campaign setting itself.
They are bigots on a scale that, if I used a real-life comparison, might offend people on this board.
They are racists on a scale that, if I used a real-life comparison, might offend people on this board.
When they were in power, they were almost as abusive of the other types of elves they ruled as the predecessors of the drow were to their subjects.
It was gold elven aggression against their own people that caused the Crown Wars that effectively destroyed the elven race.
There is no hesitation on the part of gold elves to kill or harm other elves, even other gold elves. Life is not that important to them, I must assume.

Heck, it is not just the drow who desperately need Eilistraee.
It is the Gold Elves, too. (And I'm sure Eilistraee sickens these elves as throughly as she sickens the evil drow.)

Why everyone seems to think it so necessary to portray Gold Elves as such monsters is quite beyond me. Or elves period, for that matter.
I do not see why they cannot be at least somewhat like the original definition given in the Player's Handbook 1st Edition: flighty, frivolous, and merry.

- - -

In the IR ...

The elves of Evermeet, while there still was an Isle of Evermeet, had chosen to end magic, in order to stop events occurring on the mainland. (These events relating to the Industrial Revolution the gnomes had started, and which nations from Calimshan to Murghom were now pursuing.)
They succeeded. They did stop all magic (and all technomancy), on Toril and in Realmspace, with a great ceremony, and for an entire year no magic or technomancy functioned in the Crystal Sphere.
This act ended up killing millions of people across Toril and millions more in Realmspace. It devastated entire lands, and blasted whole cities to smithereens.
The loss of magic also caused a loss of flora and fauna life, both immediate and in the long term, for magic and life are entwined in Realmspace. Stop the one, and you stop the other ... or, at least, you seriously hurt the other and ultimately it will stop.
The elven act - which is, sadly, something gold elves WOULD do, based on the official portrayals of sun elves, and considering the situation in the IR - caused hideous and massive destruction Toril wide.

Because of this act, the humanoids - already partially united because of the illithid threat from Below - fully united.
Forrester was able to take advantage of humanoid anger (at the mass destruction and death of many humanoids in the magic calamity) to make himself King of the Humanoids.
Because the humanoids were so angered, they remained united, and united they turned their anger against the elves.

Also, the illithid threat was now much greater than before, for the illithid employed psionics, not magic.
The illithid could thus overwhelm and destroy the drow, svirfneblin, and other Underdark races, and after they became masters of the Underdark and had enslaved all the once powerful races there, they turned their attention to the humanoids, the last great Underdark adversary remaining. (The phaerimm and certain others simply got out of harm's reach before the illithid got to them.)
The greatly magnified illithid threat, greatly magnified the need for humanoid cohesion and unity, and ensured that this would happen (if there was one thing that could unify all these disparate and evil races, it was two great common enemies, the illithid and the elves.)

In addition, the elven act of ending magic smashed or seriously weakened many of the Faerunian nations that might have resisted the humanoids or aided the elves.
Candlekeep was suddenly defenseless. Luskan became just another northern port. Waterdeep lost it's legendary magical powers of defense and intelligence. Cormyr's War Wizards were powerless. The Zhentarim could not raise any spells. The Witches of Rashemen sat idle. The Thayvians collapsed as their slaves arose against them. Even Sembia fell into chaos.

So when the humanoids arose in their might and besieged Evereska, there was nobody to help.
Evereska itself, was reliant on magic for it's own defense, and that magic was gone. Now, stripped of magic, they faced hundreds of thousands of angry and united humanoids.
Evermeet could not send help in time, for without magic the mundane trip was too far.
The scattered elves of other places and nations could not reach Evereska through the sea of humanoids surrounding the area.
And very few non-elves were willing to help, given that they had suffered so badly due to the elves, or due to the fact that they were in anarchy and could not save themselves, much less help someone else.

Evereska fell, it's people were slaughtered down to the least and very last, it was obliterated from the face of Toril, and the humanoids feasted upon the corpses (and I do remember that emissaries from many other nations participated in that feast. Anger at the elves was running high.)

Yet, the act - the act of ending magic - was precisely the thing gold elves would have done.
They saw the rise of the Technomancy, a confederation of many nations employing the new gnomish inventions in combination with magic (Lantan, Calimshan, Amn, Tethyr, Chondath, Chessenta, Unther, and Mulhorand were the prime members of the Technomancy.)
They saw the Technomancy pushing itself off on everyone else, saw terrible and frightening new inventions being developed on a daily basis, saw greed and avarice overwhelm reason and logic.
They saw forests being levelled for fuel, strip mines desecrating the very earth, the air fouled with pollution, and the green and wood elves of Faerun being driven out of the Forest of Tethyr, the Chondalwood, and all of southern Faerun. (Indeed, because of earlier hostilities, elves were being attacked on sight in the Technomancy, or imprisoned and enslaved on a widespread basis.)
The situation in Faerun threatened Evermeet very badly. It threatened to destroy the very foundations of the world the elves had always known, and to make the world over into something strange and hostile. Something in which they, the elves, would have no place at all.

Still, ending magic wasn't the answer, as was proven in the end.
The elves, had they been wise, would have found a better answer, a better way. Don't ask me what that is, for it never happened ... but elves are supposed to be lofty and wise, and are supposed to be intelligent and thoughtful beings, and I can reasonably assume they could have found that better way.
Instead, they put an end to magic for an entire year.

I guess the point here to this whole article is not that the elves of Evermeet did this in the IR, but that the elves of Evermeet WOULD have done something like this in that scenario, and the sun elves would - most of all - have advocated such ruthless and extreme measures.
And that is because of the way in which sun elves are portrayed. They are portrayed as ruthless, bigoted, racist, hateful people. At least, they are portrayed as such often enough to form a generally bad impression.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To continue ...

The Fall of Evereska should have seen the humanoids falling apart. Considering humanoids, this would have been their standard behavior.
However, the illithid were now coming to the surface, Underdark humanoid cities and habitats were under full attack, and more importantly the humanoids had a powerful and inspiring leader to rally around.
This leader was King Forrester. A being who was of several humanoid races, he was able to hold them together against the odds.

And one of the primary reasons Forrester could do this was because of humanoid anger against the elves.
This anger was supported and funded by the Technomancy and other nations who saw the elves as a continued threat, and who wished to keep the humanoids off their own backs. Certainly, they had trouble enough without Forrester attacking them.
With the general mood of anger against the elves, it was all too easy to look away from the Atrocity of Evereska, and urge the humanoids to further war ... against the elves, which is to say, against someone ELSE.

The northern nations of Faerun did NOT urge war against the elves, and did not aid Forrester.
Instead, they fell to Forrester, one by one.
The combined might of hundreds of thousands of humanoids, along with the cessation of magic these nations had depended on, and the massive destruction to their infrastructure they relied on for survival (whereas humanoids lived off the land) made them easy pickings for the humanoids, fresh off their victory at Evereska.
Cormyr went down, it's Purple Dragons overwhelmed.
Sembia, joined the Technomancy in order to survive.
The Dalelands, were swallowed up and devoured like choice meats (the Chosen of Mystra had to flee Shadowdale, for they could not call upon their magic to protect themselves.)
The Knights of Myth Drannor fell with their forest. The drow the illithid did not kill, fell to the humanoids.
The cities of the Moonsea were more clever: seeing the way the winds were blowing, they surrendered to Forrester and were peacefully incorporated into his growing empire.
The humanoid onslaught fed on itself. The Vast fell, it's elves massacred, it's dwarves fleeing underground. Then Impiltur surrendered. Thesk tried to join Thay, saw there was nothing left to join, then also surrendered. The people of Rashemen fought fiercely, then fled when they saw berserker strength alone could not win against Forrester.
In the west, the humanoids whelmed one region after another, until it was discovered that Forrester always accepted surrender on good terms, and your nation was peacefully incorporated.
Nobody had to die, except the elves. The elves had to be turned over to the humanoids - all the elves, period. Any nations protecting elves were made examples of.
Westgate surrendered. Iriaebor was conquered. The Western Heartlands collapsed. Baldur's Gate was successfully stormed. Candlekeep joined the Technomancy to save itself. Luskan was burned to the ground.
Neverwinter and Ardeep Forest were invaded and whelmed. The elves of the High Forest were hunted down and exterminated.
Waterdeep and Luruar withstood the attack, and threw it back. They were the only nations that did. Many peoples fled to those two areas, and found themselves permanently exiled, for neither of those nations had the strength to counterattack Forrester.

Thus, the Humanoid League was created.
Ruled by Forrester, and under him leaders from every kind of humanoid race, the Humanoid League held a third of the continent of Faerun.

The Technomancy, now in firm control of Thay, Candlekeep, Sembia, and other areas that had joined for protection, offered a non-aggression pact with Forrester.
Forrester, of course, accepted, then began the process of acquiring technomancy for the humanoids.

And now Forrester looked across the sea to Evermeet.
With most of northern Faerun in his hands, the technomancy a tacit ally, and with only the faerie aiding the elves in force, Evermeet was in serious trouble.

The Siege of Evermeet was the greatest battle in the 1st IR.
It killed most of the humanoids in the attack.
It killed half the faerie come to defend the island ... and sadly, afterwards the faerie departed Toril forever.
It killed countless thousands of demihumans and assorted monsters brought by both sides to aid in the battle.
Yet in the end Forrester was victorious. The pleas of Evermeet to the Technomancy went unheeded, and finally the humanoids whelmed the island.

Again, the elves of Evermeet did something classically elvish - by the standards given in most books and novels.
That is, the elves did something really bad, really wrong. Seeing they would be destroyed, they decided to take their destroyers with them, and to heck with the consequences.
Evermeet, exploded.

Yet again, you have to remember that this is something that the elves would have done, if you go by the defintions of elves as bigoted, racist, elitist, and a people who have no regard for life. A people willing to destroy others in vast numbers to achieve a goal (look at the High Moor, if you want to see their true history, and it wasn't the drow who caused that, regardless of revisionist history!)

The explosion of Evermeet was a million megaton affair.
A tidal wave thousands of feet high raced for the Sword Coast. Guess what happened there, when it hit? Guess what happened to Waterdeep, Candlekeep, Calimport, and just about every place within 50 miles of the coast?
The blast wave then hit. The mountains so common to Faerun stopped most of it before it destroyed too much of the continent. Nevertheless, a greater part of the Shaar went up in flames, and from space Toril was aglow with fire.
Titanic earthquakes ripped across Toril. Cities and whole nations were destroyed in the cataclysm. Mountains shattered, seas rushed in, new lands pushed up, great flows of magma wreaked destruction across Faerun.
Finally, a great cloud covered all the world of Toril. That cloud blocked out the sun. Across all of Toril, it started to grow dark. Across all of Toril, it started to grow cold.

The leader of the Technomancy, Darwin, looked out of the broken windows of Parliament, and sent a very sad letter to his wife in that dark hour, for he did not expect to live much longer.
Nobody expected to live much longer.
Had it not been for the sacrifice of the Psionic League in Realmspace, where over a million people gave up their lives in a combined ritual, it is possible that nobody - at least those on the surface - would have lived for very long.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The elves were not satisfied with the near destruction of Toril.
In the end, the elves of Realmspace - the elves of the Imperial Elven Navy - assembled a massive fleet to sterilize the planet.
They called these fleets the Fleets of Retribution.

They did this because they saw that the people of Toril blamed the elves for the cataclysms that had occurred there, blamed the elves for their own demise, and hailed Forrester and his humanoids as heroes, allies, and even friends (the humanoids had grown greatly by that time. Now, they were a civilized people, neutral and not evil, brighter than average humans, and with massive technomancy at their disposal.)
This was unacceptable to the elitist and vengeful minded elves of the Imperial Navy, so they did what they did.

It is worth noting that at this point no elves remained on Toril or anywhere in Realmspace, except in Aglarond, Luruar, Shadowdale, a rebuilt Waterdeep (the Nations of the Chosen of Mystra), and in hiding on asteroids and in remote locales.
All the others were dead or expelled. Dead, if the humanoids or scro had caught them. Expelled, if in the Technomancy or Eternal Union or other nations.

Obviously, the people of Toril had not been reasonable in their treatment of the elves. That is a given.
Hate begets hate, and one retribution led to another, each bigger than the one before it.
The Elven Fleets of Retribution were the final blow, meant to end the atrocity once and for all ... with a final atrocity of complete extermination.

Although it's rather ghastly, I can see the elves - the gold elves in particular - engaging in a grudge match of this sort.
These are the elves who condemned the humanoids to exile on Winter in Winterspace, a terrible and nearly uninhabitable world where they were left to starve by the millions.
Now, of course, the scro pulled the same atrocities - but you'd EXPECT the scro to pull atrocities. The elves should have been better than that (they are chaotic good, no?)

 

[Gez]

As fun as the IR were, Edena, they are not canon, you know.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The Point

Everything above is why the Elves of Evermeet joined with Forrester.

When Evermeet was destroyed, the elves were not allowed into Arvandor.
Corellon and Sehanine had no use for elves who would wreck the magic of a Crystal Sphere over technomancy.
The Elves of Evermeet were doomed to remain on Toril as ghosts, helpless, while the change they fought so hard against came about anyways - came on a scale they had not dreamed of when they threw the magic-annulling ceremony.

The Elves of Evermeet, including the Gold Elves, learned something from this.
It isn't clear what they learned, but certainly they had plenty of time to contemplate and attain understanding while they remained in the netherworld of unlife.
And they decided that, if they were given a second chance, that they would start anew, with open minds.
They decided to change their ways, and to change with the changing world. To change from what they had been, into the unknown and unknowable future.

However, before they got any chance at resurrection, the Elven Fleets of Retribution came to destroy Toril.

The Elves of Evermeet went up into space to fight alongside their former enemies, the humanoids and scro, and all the other peoples of Toril, to save them.
They had changed. They had become altrustic. They put aside past feuds. They put aside grievances (even if those grievances were well founded and justified.)
The Elves of Evermeet, Sun Elves included, put aside their racism and bigotry, their hatred and their fear, to aid the peoples of Toril against a common enemy that was come to destroy humanoid, human, and demihuman alike.
The fact that the attackers were elves, made no difference.

Forrester won't admit it today (if you ask the person who plays that SN) but King Forrester was impressed by this.
Forrester put aside his hostility to these shades of once elves. They were saving his people and his world.
And because of the shock value of the spirits of elves attacking them, the attacking elves were thrown into chaos.
Before they could turn their great weapons on the planet, the elven spirits from once Evermeet and their allies, the humans and humanoids and demihumans and neoillithid, and all the peoples of Toril, were upon them.
Toril was saved. The Elven Fleets of Retribution were destroyed.

Destroyed also, was the ancient hatred between elves and non-elves.
It was a time of new beginnings. A new world, with new and very great possibilities.
This was the beginning of the United Commonwealth of Toril, the enlightened and very good aligned supernation. Starting with the old Technomancy, the UCT would grow as peoples joined in, one after the other - first the old Shining South of Faerun, then Zakhara, then the denizens of the moon Selune, then the neoillithid, and many others.
(And because they did, because they united in this way, they survived the Great Assault of the Illithid that was later to occur. Only a united Toril could have survived, but Toril HAD united, and could stand united against this or any other threat.)

The Ceremony of the Church of Toril was performed.
Among other truly powerful effects, one of the effects was to resurrect the elves of Evermeet.
Not the Island itself. It was not returned. Only the actual elves were restored.
Just as well. Evermeet belonged to the past - even had it been restored, the elves would not have remained there, for it stood for values and beliefs they had in large measure abandoned.

The Elves of Evermeet, now the last elves of Realmspace, decided that their road lie down new and unexplored paths. As stated above, they had long ago decided this.
The Elves of Evermeet, also believed they owed restitution to Toril for past wrongs committed, and especially for the anti-magic ceremony. Although partial restitution was achieved in the battle against the Fleets of Retribution, it was not enough.

After a long debate, the decision was made that to unite with the humanoids was the best of the possible new roads to be taken.
To unite with the humanoids, offered the greatest possibilities for a new and better world.
A new and better world, in that diversity and sharing of cultures and ideas could be accomplished between elves and humanoids. Knowledge and insights could be mutually understood. All would benefit from this sharing.
True peace and unity could be attained, and peace and unity were something desirable.
And, the elves were forced to acknowledge their kinsmanship with the humanoids, for it was there to see and they could not now deny it. In other words, the elves WERE humanoids themselves, but had deceived themselves into thinking otherwise, but now the truth was laid bare.

Queen Amlaruil had not returned with the great resurrection, so her eldest daughter assuming Queenship of the Elves.
And she gave herself to King Forrester as his concubine. King Forrester accepted, and (I remember he was quite astounded) Forrester agreed to the Unity of Elves and Humanoids.
After that, they merged into one people, within the Humanoid Confederation.

The addition of the elves to the mix made of the humanoid peoples better peoples, for the elves that joined were truly enlightened, and they passed that enlightenment to those they joined.
The humanoids (elves included) flourished, growing in lore and power, in beauty and strength, in understanding and wisdom, until their nation was comparable to the mighty United Commonwealth of Toril.
In this the elves do not take credit, although some credit is due them. It is enough for them that they have found new ways, new avenues of exploration, new joys in life, and they had cast aside all the old ways and superstitions that had shackled their people.
The Seldarine, who advocated intolerance and bigotry, were abandoned. Likewise, the humanoids abandoned their dieties of destruction and evil. (actually, the humanoids had done this long ago.)

Eventually, the Humanoid League joined the United Commonwealth of Toril, and all of Faerun was united under it's banner (except for the Nations of the Chosen only.)
Within the vast expanse, both physical and intellectual, of the UCT, the elves/humanoids flourished and grew.
Eventually some of them would come to match the phaerimm in magical might, while others would match the eladrin and devae in moral quality. In lore and understanding, they far outstripped the old Heralds and Lorekeepers at Candlekeep, and some would come close to matching the Chronomancers of Ironfang Keep.
In unity and peace, they found that they had more diversity of opinions of beliefs than the old elves could ever have dreamed of, and any kind of thinking and behavior was tolerable - so long as it was not intentionally destructive to others. For THAT, behavior intentionally harmful or deadly to others, was not tolerated.

In the 3rd IR, the elves/humanoids played a crucial role in saving Realmspace from the deprivations occurring in Greyspace.
And when the final blow from the Church of Shade came, and threatened to destroy Realmspace once and for all, the lofty thinking that had come to epitomize the UCT, and which had spread from it to so many other Crystal Spheres, thwarted the forces of darkness and made possible the creation of the Demiplane of Hope.

The Demiplane of Hope.
The new home of Realmspace, and of the Elves of Evermeet melded with the humanoids into one people.

- - -

And that is the story.
If you believe that it is strange, for an elf and a kobold to live together, or mate, or have children, then this story explains why it happened.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Of course they are not canon.

They were not meant seriously at all.

However, I believe Forrester, Phasmus, Darwin, William and others gave a very serious depth to some of what happened.

If they were canon, everyone would not be discussing (both here and on the WOTC boards) how bigoted and racist and evil Gold Elves are!!!

(chuckles - if I read that the Forgotten Realms of the three IRs were canon, I would put down the FRCS, quite sure I was hallucinating.)

 

[Alzrius]

Except I can't find any 3E FR publications that explicitly state that sun elves are chaotic good. The Player's Handbook and Monster Manual say that elves are usually chaotic good, but FR elves are different than the default D&D elves, and not just in height. Races of Faerun (and to a lesser extent, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) list the attributes of the various elf subraces, but no alignments are given.

Because none is necessary. Where no alternatives are given, you go with what has been previously laid out. 3E FR products don't explicitly state sun elves are CG because that would be redundant. We assume, thanks to the MM, that elves are CG unless specifically told otherwise.

FR Elves aren't the only races that are different from their default D&D counterparts, though. Monsters of Faerun includes Faerunian dwarves (but oddly enough, no elves), and it lists the typical alignments of each dwarf subrace. Such as...

Shield Dwarf: Usually lawful good
Gold Dwarf: Usually lawful good
Duergar: Usually lawful evil
Arctic Dwarf: Usually lawful neutral.
Urdunnir: Usually neutral
Wild Dwarf: Usually lawful neutral.

There are alignment variations given for elven subtypes in the MM for wood elves and drow elves. Since neither FR nor the MM say anything about the alignment of other elven subtypes, is it really so hard to imagine that maybe then they have the same general CG alignment that applies to just "elves" in general?

Now, if it's possible for the dwarves to have such varied alignments, can't elves be the same way?

Firstly, because dwarves aren't elves. Secondly, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; you don't ask "why can't X be different?" because that assumes the wrong premise (which is that since there is no reason something cannot be, that means it is). Far better to ask, why should they be different? Nothing explicitly says they have a different alignment, so the answer there is "they shouldn't be".

Originally posted by Gez
Actually, they have always been dark elves, just like wood elves have always been green elves. Their skin color has always been dark, even before the curse (well, you may find conflicting canon about this point, since in one version they were fair skinned before and were turned to obsidian skin as the mark of their treachery; but accepted canon said they simply were cursed to flee from the sunlight and the surface, and have always been jetblack).

The excerpt you posted says they originally had "dark" skin, but it also says they were "cursed into their present appearance."

Given that curse, they must have looked different to begin with. So, they had dark skin before, but nothing compared to how they looked after they were cursed, so then we know "dark elves" couldn't always have applied to them as a specific subrace. Now, given that when that happened, when they were cursed, they became drow, it doesn't make sense for them to also have a second racial term...but makes far more sense that they'd just be given the title of any evil elf, "dark elf".

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(shrugs)

Everyone is welcome to the canon elves.
After all, they ARE the canon elves.

But they would count as variant elves in any campaign of mine.
Especially racist, bigoted elves like those of FR.

They really aren't very interesting to play. Not for me.
Even back in 2nd Edition, when elves were better choices to play because they were more powerful than the other races, I could not stand playing the default elves.
Just not my cup of tea.

If I want to play evil, I'll do it right.
Give me Loviatar. Give me Bane. Give me some soul destroying magic, some meat tenderizers, and lots of nasty schemes and plots.
Give me EVIL. The real stuff. Not all that racism and elitism nonsense.
(My evil characters don't need to flout their superiority to anyone. Not when they are busy immensely enjoying the suffering and mass destruction they are so gleefully causing.)

If I MUST play an elitist elf, give me the drow. Specifically, a drow female.
(DOWN ON YOUR KNEES, MALE. DOWN ON YOUR KNEES, NON-DROW. DOWN ON YOUR KNEES, NON LOLTH WORSHIPPER. DOWN ON YOUR KNEES, ACOLYTE OF LOLTH. DOWN ON YOUR KNEES, LESSER PRIESTESS. I AM SUPREME!)

 

[Dark Jezter]

Because none is necessary. Where no alternatives are given, you go with what has been previously laid out. 3E FR products don't explicitly state sun elves are CG because that would be redundant. We assume, thanks to the MM, that elves are CG unless specifically told otherwise.

You assume, you mean. Judging by the responses in this thread, it appears as though there are quite a few people who believe that sun elves are usually lawful neutral.

There are alignment variations given for elven subtypes in the MM for wood elves and drow elves. Since neither FR nor the MM say anything about the alignment of other elven subtypes, is it really so hard to imagine that maybe then they have the same general CG alignment that applies to just "elves" in general?

Yes, it is. The way that the sun elves are described in Races of Faerun (as well as the novels and older FR products) is definately not chaotic good. Just because Greyhawk elves (whom, as I stated earlier, are quite different from Faerun elves) are usually chaotic good dosen't mean that FR elves are.

Firstly, because dwarves aren't elves. Secondly, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; you don't ask "why can't X be different?" because that assumes the wrong premise (which is that since there is no reason something cannot be, that means it is). Far better to ask, why should they be different? Nothing explicitly says they have a different alignment, so the answer there is "they shouldn't be".

No, I will ask "Why can't elves be different" because it is a valid point. FR dwarves have been shown to be more varied than their Greyhawk counterparts, so it is very possible that FR elves are very different from their Greyhawk counterparts.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I can find no rulebook which states something along the lines of "Evil elves are referred to as 'dark elves' by others, though this is not to be confused with the Drow, who are also called 'Dark Elves,' because they are most often evil."

And yes, the context DOES matter. Krynn and the Realms have different ways and methods of talking, different elves, and different definitions for things. Just because a halfling is called a Kender doesn't mean that all halflings can sometimes be called Kender, to give an example. Just because they call evil elves "Dark Elves" does not make this any measure of cannon, that all evil elves are called dark elves.

That can be the way it goes in your campaign, and on Krynn, but a few quotes by some Krynnish peice of fiction doesn't mean that all evil elves are hereby refered to as Dark Elves universally.

What the rulebooks state (as Gez has pointed out) are that Drow are also known as Dark Elves. They haven't stated anywhere that evil elves are also called dark elves.

So you're case that "dark elf" applies to any evil elf is faulty, based on some Dragonlance novel you've read. Perhaps it does mean that, in Dragonlance. But that doesn't mean that all people everywhere on every D&D world refer to all evil elves as 'Dark Elves.' It makes sense, but it's confusing and unnessecary.

Meanwhile, back on topic...anybody got a case for why the Sun Elves are *not* Lawful Neutral-Evil other than 'The Book Says So'?