Full attack and Improved Grapple

[Liminal Syzygy]

A Gray Render has a full attack sequence of 1 bite and 2 claws.

If the bite lands, it can use improved grapple to initiate a grapple and rend automatically.

If it decides to grapple (assuming it does successfully) on its bite how do you decide how many, if any, additional attacks it gets if the bite was at the beginning of a full attack action?

 

[FrankTrollman]

NOTE: I am going to completely ignore the line "you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks...." as if we read that line literally it becomes advantageous for clericss to become grappled as it allows them to cast spells iteratively based on their BAB - which is a horrible idea.

While you are in a grapple, you can attack with all of your natural weapons. You suffer a -4 penalty, but you get to inflict additional unarmed damage or pin with additional grapple checks.

So the Grey Render has a BAB of +10, so it gets two grapple attempts (one at +20, one at +15) every round, which can pin or damage an opponent - and they still get both of their claws and their bite every turn.

-Frank

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

When you say that you are going to ignore the "you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks" line you basically say that you're going to ignore the rules for grappling. While technically, that line would appear to allow iterative spellcasting (which I agree is a horrible idea), it's quite clear that the rule does limit everyone--creatures with natural attacks, PCs, and creatures without natural attacks--to one attack per iterative attack allowed by BAB. The creature may attack an opponent in the grapple "with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon." The prohibition on attacking with two weapons (156 right column, 1st paragraph, last line), could quite reasonably be extended to prohibiting the use of natural attack routines as well.

Even if you manage to ignore the first line restricting you to one action per incremental BAB attack and don't extend the prohibition on attacking with two weapons to natural attack routines, however, it is still unclear how on earth you could reach the conclusion that a grappling creature gets his natural attack routine in addition to his iterative grapple checks. There's nothing that even suggests such a thing--and it's easily as bad an idea to let a fifteenth level druid in dire bear form suddenly get 6 attacks/round (Claw/claw/bite + iterative attacks from +12 to +2) instead of 3 attacks per round simply because he succeeded at an improved grab grapple check. Not that it's any better for a normal dire-bear to be able to do such a thing.

NOTE: I am going to completely ignore the line "you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks...." as if we read that line literally it becomes advantageous for clericss to become grappled as it allows them to cast spells iteratively based on their BAB - which is a horrible idea.

While you are in a grapple, you can attack with all of your natural weapons. You suffer a -4 penalty, but you get to inflict additional unarmed damage or pin with additional grapple checks.

So the Grey Render has a BAB of +10, so it gets two grapple attempts (one at +20, one at +15) every round, which can pin or damage an opponent - and they still get both of their claws and their bite every turn.

-Frank

 

[Legildur]

After reading the SRD, I can now see why you asked the question - not overly clear.

However, given that only the bite (and not the claws) has the Improved Grab ability, I would say that only the grapple check from the bite would result in a rend. However, the description for rend doesn't say which attack form actually 'tears the flesh', so I'll leave that alone.

Let's say the Render lands the rend, that would mean it is now grappling. Therefore it would normally be restricted to grappling actions. If it's BAB allowed it, it could gain a single claw attack (albeit at a -4 penalty for using an attack during a grapple). However, the Render's BAB of +10 doesn't list an iterative attack, so I don't think it gets a second attack of any description in any round it grapples.

But I'm happy to be corrected on this if anyone has better info.

And I'm so going to leave alone the 6 attacks suggestion that was previously floated.

 

[Darklone]

As soon as I find a monster somewhere with iterative natural attacks, I'll give them to monsters while grappling. Till then, I give them one attack for every natural weapon.

 

[Thanee]

I think the optimum (all hits/successes) would be...

bite
initiate grapple -> rend
claw (at -4)
claw (at -4)

Of course the smarter way would be...

claw
claw
bite
initiate grapple -> rend

Next round (still grappling), the Gray Render can choose...

bite (at -4)
grapple check -> rend
claw (at -4)
claw (at -4)

OR

grapple check
grapple check (at -5)

Bye
Thanee

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

I think the optimum (all hits/successes) would be...

bite
initiate grapple -> rend
claw (at -4)
claw (at -4)

Of course the smarter way would be...

claw
claw
bite
initiate grapple -> rend

That was actually another question that I thought it might be better to save. Can you alter the order of natural attacks in cases in which it matters or do you have to do them in order of the listed full attack sequence?

 

[Darklone]

I'd say no. At least in 3.0, there was at the beginning of the combat chapter a sentence that you started with you highest to hit attack...

 

[reapersaurus]

Great approach, Darklone - let the creatures be slaves to the rules, with no strategy - just follow a limiting, ambiguous sentence.

 

[Caliban]

NOTE: I am going to completely ignore the line "you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks...." as if we read that line literally it becomes advantageous for clericss to become grappled as it allows them to cast spells iteratively based on their BAB - which is a horrible idea.
[/b]

It's probably just as well that you are ignoring that line, since that's not actually what it says.

What it actually says: "When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action)."

Spellcasting is not one of the actions that can be used in place of an attack.

While you are in a grapple, you can attack with all of your natural weapons. You suffer a -4 penalty, but you get to inflict additional unarmed damage or pin with additional grapple checks.

So the Grey Render has a BAB of +10, so it gets two grapple attempts (one at +20, one at +15) every round, which can pin or damage an opponent - and they still get both of their claws and their bite every turn.

-Frank

No, this is wrong. You can either use your natural weapons, or you can make grapple checks. You don't get all your natural attacks plus all your grapple attempts.

Technically, the natural attacks would be used in place of your grapple checks (using the iterative BAB and a further -4 penalty).

Thus the Gray Render is reduced to two attacks (total) while grappling, and can either use them for grapple checks or natural weapon attacks.

Optionally, it can take a -20 on it's grapple checks to hold the opponent with it's mouth or one limb, and make normal natural weapon attacks with the remaining limbs/mouth.