"Fun"

[CleverNickName]

The part that bothers me is the "move the PCs quickly from encounter to encounter, and on to the fun!" idea. It implies that everything between encounters can and should be ignored, yet that is where the story takes place.

I like games to be more than just one encounter after another.

 

[Reynard]

In any case, if you want to play a game about supply and food storage, you should be here: boardgamegeek.com. If you need advice on navigating it, just ask. I can recommend many incredibly well designed games about supply and food storage, all of which are a delight to play. Marking off "X days of iron rations remaining" is not a delight. I'll do it for verisimilitude, and I'll make my Nature checks to forage, but by golly if the DM wants to dwell on it we'll have to have a talk after the game.

Well if the DMG isn't giving us a prime example of badwrongfunism, Cadfan sure is. "If you like X (where X is something that D&D has always had, by the way), go play a boardgame."

Classy.

 

[Khairn]

Instead, we've got badwrongfunism forever enshrined in the DMG, and thus, if goal are met, a whole generation of D&D players that don't waste time on unfun stuff like talking to guards, exploring dungeon coorridors or managing "real" resources.

WotC has made an effort in 4E to re-define what D&D is, and more importantly what it isn't. Given that statement from the DMG, the new edition apparently isn't about encounters that can set mood or theme ... it isn't about imagining you're actually the character having to deal with all aspects of the story. It looks like those elements aren't defined as being "fun".

It's now all about the action, the combat, and the cool powers.

For many players, that appears to be what they are looking for in an RPG. For other players that are looking for more depth (detail, minutiae etc) they'll just have to look elsewhere.

Its an interesting observation about the new system, and I think it illustrates a perception of 4E that many gamers have. Unfortunately I don't believe WotC is bothered by that perception. They have calculated that the new game will push away a certain % of existing gamers, but are betting that they will capture even more from new markets.

 

[hong]

A whole generation of gamers has already grown up that doesn't want to waste time on unfun stuff like talking to guards, exploring dungeon corridors or managing "real" resources. They are called the Playstation Generation. They are not playing D&D. If this language causes them to want to play D&D, more power to such language.

 

[Reynard]

A whole generation of gamers has already grown up that doesn't want to waste time on unfun stuff like talking to guards, exploring dungeon corridors or managing "real" resources. They are called the Playstation Generation. They are not playing D&D. If this language causes them to want to play D&D, more power to such language.

I'm not so sure, hong. Those kids grew up on Japanese RPGs, yet 4E also cut out random encounters. I played FF VII, and if it weren't for the random encounters, the game would have been "20 minutes of fun packed into 4 hours of cut scenes".

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Who is WotC to tell me that getting past the guards isn't fun?

The guys writing a book of advice for millions of people, including new and some outright terrible DMs, rather than a pamphlet aimed only at you?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

For many players, that appears to be what they are looking for in an RPG. For other players that are looking for more depth (detail, minutiae etc) they'll just have to look elsewhere.

Why? Is each copy of the DMG1 bugged?

 

[hong]

I'm not so sure, hong. Those kids grew up on Japanese RPGs, yet 4E also cut out random encounters. I played FF VII, and if it weren't for the random encounters, the game would have been "20 minutes of fun packed into 4 hours of cut scenes".

CRPGs need random encounters to fill out time, because combats are over so quickly. You can do a 10-round combat in 10 minutes. Random encounters are less necessary for adventure pacing in p&p, where that combat can last an hour.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm not so sure, hong. Those kids grew up on Japanese RPGs, yet 4E also cut out random encounters. I played FF VII, and if it weren't for the random encounters, the game would have been "20 minutes of fun packed into 4 hours of cut scenes".

An even more extreme example: There are more people who have used crafting skills in an MMO than ever used them in 2E or 3E.

Heck, those player characters typically had to go out and gather the components first. There's few things quite so thrilling as carrying a heavy backpack full of clay over to the pottery wheel in Qeynos.

D&D = too much about the kewl stuff, not the deep roleplaying stuff embraced by MMOs.

 

[Fifth Element]

The guys writing a book of advice for millions of people, including new and some outright terrible DMs, rather than a pamphlet aimed only at you?

This. Mr. Gygax had several passages about badwrongfun in the 1E DMG. It's certainly not a new phenomenon.