"Fun"

[Doug McCrae]

CRPGs need random encounters to fill out time, because combats are over so quickly. You can do a 10-round combat in 10 minutes. Random encounters are less necessary for adventure pacing in p&p, where that combat can last an hour.

Crpgs need a lot more content because they pack 20 minutes of fun into 20 minutes.

 

[Khairn]

Why? Is each copy of the DMG1 bugged?

Nope, not in the least. Actually based on the positive reviews that many 4E fans have posted its the perfect book to support and teach the DM's on how to run a proper 4E game.

 

[Ruslanchik]

Crpgs need a lot more content because they pack 20 minutes of fun into 20 minutes.

There is nothing more fun than spending 20 minutes going from one side of the town/continent/planet to the other. I've played a lot of CRPGs and all of them involved this.

One of the great things about DnD is that it allows the DM to say: "You travel 500 miles. It took you 2 weeks." (Actual game time: 30 seconds for DM to pull up notes on new location.)

Some of the interactions in tabletop games may be tedious, but that is nothing compared to killing the same kind of monsters over and over to gain XP, crafting the same useless items over and over, gathering resources, etc., etc., which are almost always a part of CRPs.

 

[Rechan]

This. Mr. Gygax had several passages about badwrongfun in the 1E DMG. It's certainly not a new phenomenon.

What? You mean this isn't the first edition people dislike things in the core books?!

 

[Parlan]

There's few things quite so thrilling as carrying a heavy backpack full of clay over to the pottery wheel in Qeynos.

Except perhaps *listening to* another player describe her PC carrying a heavy backpack full of clay over to the pottery wheel for 20 minutes, then discuss with another potter the weather, his family life and different varieties of clay for another hour.

 

[mmu1]

Missing the $%@#$#* forest for the trees, once again.

Forget the guards, forget the stupid rations - the real issue is the "there's no fun to be had outside of a (combat) encounter" idea, which is idiotic advice in something claiming to be an RPG.

These days, it's not even the prevalent trend in CRPGs - aside from the lame Diablo clone or two we still get treated to most years, game worlds are getting more detailed and immersive.

The point they should be driving home is that what makes RPGs different is that you can interact with the world in any way you like... though I suppose that can be a problem since it could require the DM to improvise in ways that the DC table doesn't cover. >_>

 

[Campbell]

For better or worse 4e isn't built for players that enjoy chewing scenery or managing minutiae. It is built for players that enjoy action (in the dramatic sense). The basic conceit is that focus should be on meaningful drama and edge of your seat excitement (the parts most films focus on) with occasional forays into more mundane matters to help provide context to the characters' adventures. You skip past the dialogue with the guards if that dialogue doesn't serve to propel the action of the game forward, not because it involves talking.

 

[hong]

(combat) encounter

I see what you did there.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Missing the $%@#$#* forest for the trees, once again.

Forget the guards, forget the stupid rations - the real issue is the "there's no fun to be had outside of a (combat) encounter" idea, which is idiotic advice in something claiming to be an RPG.

These days, it's not even the prevalent trend in CRPGs - aside from the lame Diablo clone or two we still get treated to most years, game worlds are getting more detailed and immersive.

The point they should be driving home is that what makes RPGs different is that you can interact with the world in any way you like... though I suppose that can be a problem since it could require the DM to improvise in ways that the DC table doesn't cover. >_>

This.

Even CRPG's have roleplaying PC and NPC interaction that everyone clamors for more of and that CRPG companies are trying to implement further and further into the game, and the market that WotC is trying to lure in has gotten more and more used to immersive worlds that let you do more and more stuff.

The market that WotC is trying to lure is used to immersion, used to things being more and more complex. The big time fans of WoW and CoX know the nitty-gritty of the mechanics behind it, and trust me, those mechanics are pretty intense and in-depth.

When you're playing a non-MMORPG, you click on everyone. Why? Because they might have dialog, they might have missions for you, adventures, give hints, etc.

Ever play Deus-Ex? A bum on the streets could clue you into an ambush. People got used to that, and expect that level from their computer games that are not straight FPS's.

What we see with the "if it isn't combat it isn't fun" attitude in the DMG and PHB just surprises me to no end. After the complete crash and burn of D&DOnline, where they took out virtually all the non-combat options, they obviously didn't learn a single lesson.

For better or worse 4e isn't built for players that enjoy chewing scenery or managing minutiae. It is built for players that enjoy action (in the dramatic sense). The basic conceit is that focus should be on meaningful drama and edge of your seat excitement (the parts most films focus on) with occasional forays into more mundane matters to help provide context to the characters' adventures. You skip past the dialogue with the guards if that dialogue doesn't serve to propel the action of the game forward, not because it involves talking.

Yes, because buildup to suspense never works or makes a movie good. If it isn't action, it isn't worthwhile.

While the old writing saw of "if it doesn't advance the plot, give more depth to the characters, or otherwise add to the story than cut it" still holds true in D&D, if you ONLY have the guard say hello if something is in it for the players, you run into the old problem of every single thing you detail, the PC's know it is important to the story, because obviously you wouldn't include it in the story otherwise.

Know what I mean?

But that's just my $5, since .02 won't even get you mugged nowdays.

 

[Relique du Madde]

A whole generation of gamers has already grown up that doesn't want to waste time on unfun stuff like talking to guards, exploring dungeon corridors or managing "real" resources. They are called the Playstation Generation. They are not playing D&D. If this language causes them to want to play D&D, more power to such language.

I totally agree with you Hong because I like killing those guards ala Assassin's Creed.