Fury over Black Hermione Granger

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Rowling was right there with the casting director and had tremendous influence on who got the roles. It was not the casting director alone who cast Emma Watson.

Doesn't matter. You're still interpreting the books. The author and creator of the books and characters has made a statement about it. Deal with it. Get over it. Move on.

 

[Cor Azer]

Those two types are not any more important than any other type of murder.

Nobody said they're *more* important. But they are important.

You're defending a mighty fine strawman there.

Also, most of the killings are justified. Not all, but most. These kids, black, white and otherwise are acting in stupid ways that could cause cops to be killed if they didn't react quickly and decisively. 20/20 hindsight doesn't change a valid act into a racist one.

Ok... umm... wow...

Aren't you the one in another thread who said killing people without due process is never justified? (Admittedly, that was about drone strikes on Americans deemed enemy combatants).

You first need to establish such acts as being valid. Given the frequency that even armed white alleged criminals are able to be brought in without deaths compared to black alleged criminals, there's reason to find such validity questionable.

Addendum: And given that my understanding is that one of the founding principles of American justice is that it is better to let 1000 guilty men go free rather than condemn an innocent man, we should still very *very* concerned even if only a small fraction of those deaths are not justified.

And I'll be honest, I don't delve deep into the specifics of all the deaths #BlackLivesMatter protests. I do, however, follow #TransLivesMatter (and #BlackTransLivesMatter, given that it's about 95% of #TransLivesMatter), and I think you'd have to do some pretty fancy arse-pulling to suggest any of the 21 known transwomen murders were justified.

 

[MechaPilot]

A White Pride parade would be denounced as racist if they marched just for being proud to be white. The hypocrisy the country has when dealing with racism is phenomenal.

Maybe, and I'm just spit-balling here, that's because one of the most racist organizations in the U.S., the KKK, billed themselves as a "white pride" organization for a long time.

 

[Maxperson]

For white people to face racism, there needs to be a threat of actual oppression. No other racial group in the US can assert the collective power to oppress the lives of white people in general.

LOL No. All that needs to happen for us to be the victim is for us to be on the other side of the racist comment or act. No full oppression needs to happen for the act to be based on race. If I run around calling every black person the N word, I'm not oppressing anyone. I would be acting racist, though. I'd also get my ass kicked right good and deserve it. Oppression is not a requirement for racism. It's just a tool in the racist bucket.

 

[Ryujin]

Maybe, and I'm just spit-balling here, that's because one of the most racist organizations in the U.S., the KKK, billed themselves as a "white pride" organization for a long time.

Yup, that expression has definitely become a euphemism for "white supremacist." The KKK, Neo Nazis, skinheads, etc. have adopted it whole heartedly. In the beginning it was used in an effort by more "sophisticated" racists to cover their thought processes, but has since become no more clean than the old epithets.

 

[Maxperson]

Nobody said they're *more* important. But they are important.

By putting the forward by race only, they are saying that they are more important than all of the other similar deaths of other races.

Ok... umm... wow...

Aren't you the one in another thread who said killing people without due process is never justified? (Admittedly, that was about drone strikes on Americans deemed enemy combatants).

No. I never said that. I said that MURDER without due process is never justified. What the cops do in self-defense is not murder. Some few killings are murder and those cops are being tried finally, but most are not.

You first need to establish such acts as being valid. Given the frequency that even armed white alleged criminals are able to be brought in without deaths compared to black alleged criminals, there's reason to find such validity questionable.

Only if you ignore the societal differences that lead to the increase. Black society tends to keep itself poor, yes with some help, but also with how it acts towards its own. Fathers leaving families behind, placing schooling as a lower priority, teaching kids to fear/avoid/hate the police which leads to criminals being protected and an increase in blacks getting into crime, etc. Black people do have it harder, but a good part of it is their own doing.

What you just said is only true if all other things are equal, and they aren't. Primarily, it's just a matter of numbers.

Addendum: And given that my understanding is that one of the founding principles of American justice is that it is better to let 1000 guilty men go free rather than condemn an innocent man, we should still very *very* concerned even if only a small fraction of those deaths are not justified.

Agreed. Those cops who do engage in murder should be tried and treated like a murderer.

 

[Maxperson]

Maybe, and I'm just spit-balling here, that's because one of the most racist organizations in the U.S., the KKK, billed themselves as a "white pride" organization for a long time.

Well, then I guess since the Germans were Nazis and who are well known for it, all Germans should be treated like Nazis, right? Sorry, but if you are going to associate me with something I am not associating myself with, that's on you and you're a racist for doing it if skin color is involved.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Look at it this way: the swastika was a symbol with peaceful connotations in multiple cultures around the world. It was even flown by the 45 Infantry division of the US Army.

...until Nazis. They ruined it for everyone else, and it will take time to rehabilitate the symbol, if that can even be done.

Likewise, "white pride" has been ruined by groups such as the KKK. Whatever its prior meaning, whatever your current intent, if today you use that phrase, you are going to dredge up all that hateful context whether or not that is your intent. If you wish to fight the battle to rehabilitate it, that is your prerogative, but don't be surprised if your metaphorical nose gets bloodied every time you make the attempt.

Some in the black community tried to rehabilitate the word "n****r", and for a while, it almost worked. But if you ask the culture warriors of that period TODAY how they feel about how well they did, most see it as a failure. Many are embarrassed that they made the attempt. The stain is too deep to clean.

 

[Cor Azer]

LOL No. All that needs to happen for us to be the victim is for us to be on the other side of the racist comment or act. No full oppression needs to happen for the act to be based on race. If I run around calling every black person the N word, I'm not oppressing anyone. I would be acting racist, though. I'd also get my ass kicked right good and deserve it. Oppression is not a requirement for racism. It's just a tool in the racist bucket.

Oppression isn't done by an individual on another; it's generally an implicit, and possibly unintentional, leverage behind a person's action due to institutionalized bigotry. Given the experiences black people have gone through in America, and how they were treated by white people who called them such terms, there are legitimate fears that white people who use such terms now have similar intentions to white people back then, particularly because, from my admittedly white privileged vantage, there's been a fairly successful societal education going on to let people know that such a term is, to put it mildly, a very stupid thing to say, so anyone who goes against that education is either being willfully ignorant or actually *does* espouse those outdated views - both of which are very dangerous perspectives in highly charged situations.

Having an action being based on race isn't in and of itself racist, if there are legitimate reasons behind it. Discrimination isn't bad on its face - everyone discriminates every time they make a choice. It's only bad when it's being used against a category of people that is generally unable to protect itself because it's in a minority.

Without trying to overshadow other minority groups, black people - for example - have a generally hard time removing institutionalized racism without help from non-PoC. I'm not an expert on American politics, but my understanding is that most states disallow convicts from ever voting in the future. Black people are inordinately convicted and face stiffer penalties than white people for the same actions, and are thus disproportionally removed from the voting pools of many states. The vast majority of people, I would wager, are not able to investigate every issue at hand for every election, and so tend to focus on the handful that are most relevant to their own daily lives. I don't blame them for this, and in-and-of-itself, voting in self-interest is not inherently racist. That said, given that many white people don't have all the same concerns as black people, many issues that are of concern to black people don't get the attention they need because the pool of eligible voters has been winnowed to remove those who may be affected, and thus the institutionalized racism remains intact. One aspect of white privilege is that even if a given white person doesn't vote, generally speaking, enough other white people who share the non-voter's concerns will vote and thus the non-voter's concerns are covered. Black people don't get that sort of back-up plan, particularly when stacked with other aspects of institutionalized racism that disproportionally make it harder for PoC to vote than white people.

In the US, white people are not a minority, particularly when it comes to positions of power and influence. No white people are losing things in their lives because they are white (note that "not getting something in limited supply because a minority got it instead" is not the same as losing something, because nobody was entitled to it in the first place), although they may lose things for other reasons (being white is not enough to be successful on its own, even if it does avoid some obstacles).

So, please, tell me. How do white people suffer from racism on a yearly, monthly, daily, hourly basis?

 

[Cor Azer]

By putting the forward by race only, they are saying that they are more important than all of the other similar deaths of other races.

No, only your strawman is saying that.

No. I never said that. I said that MURDER without due process is never justified. What the cops do in self-defense is not murder. Some few killings are murder and those cops are being tried finally, but most are not.

I'll grant that I misremembered your views from the other thread, if only so this thread doesn't devolve into the same arguments on it.

Although to be fair, my understanding is that self-defense is an affirmative defense - which means you need to prove you were *actually* in danger, not just *think* you're in danger.

Only if you ignore the societal differences that lead to the increase. Black society tends to keep itself poor, yes with some help, but also with how it acts towards its own. Fathers leaving families behind, placing schooling as a lower priority, teaching kids to fear/avoid/hate the police which leads to criminals being protected and an increase in blacks getting into crime, etc. Black people do have it harder, but a good part of it is their own doing.

What you just said is only true if all other things are equal, and they aren't. Primarily, it's just a matter of numbers.

Those are some *extremely* bold assertions for the troubles faced by black and other PoC that I note you leave completely unsubstantiated.

Agreed. Those cops who do engage in murder should be tried and treated like a murderer.

I was going to try to be coy and witty in response to this, but I'll be explicit:

Police officers have a very hard job, one that I would never in a million years feel capable of doing. That said, they get extraordinary privileges the average citizen does not, and given that they're usually called in when things are already a mess, they are dealing with people in very stressful situations. Those two givens need to be weighed very heavily, and everything - *EVERYTHING* - police officers do while on duty needs to be kept squarely above board, because generally speaking, the public does not have the power to police the police, and it doesn't take much stool to soil a whole pool.