Game Balance: what does it mean to you?

DM-Rocco said:
Why do some people feel that you need max hit points per level? Doesn't anyone value individuality or do we need to make robot characters.
Hit points are an abstract game concept. They don't tell you anything about the individual.
DM-Rocco said:
If you are a cleric, you will have these scores, this gear and this many hit points? That really doesn't scream balance to me. It is at its primal basis a min/max method.
Player choice can be used to min/max or not min/max. The great thing is, it's up to the player how to use this power.
DM-Rocco said:
If you know everything you run into will have a certain amount of hit points and weapons do a certain amount of fix damage and you will hit that creature everything 3 out of 4 swings, then where does the fun come from?
I'm not in favour of fixed weapon damage. You could always calculate your chance to hit AC X in any edition. Those numbers will indeed average out over the long term. The problem with random rolls for stats and hit points is that it's much fewer rolls. It only gets the chance to average out if there's a lot of PCs per player and/or a high PC turnover.

Which is exactly how 1e was supposed to work! And this is why such randomisation no longer works in the era of skill points, feat choices and PCs with names.
 

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Umbran said:
When I use the term, I generally mean it thusly:

A game is balanced when, over an extended and varied campaign, all the basic character options can be expected to have roughly equal chance to be effective. Each would be able to have roughly the same overall coolness factor and ability to take some spotlight for themselves.

I don't take this idea down to to granular a scale. For example, it does not mean that each character must be able to dish out the same damage in a fight. It does mean that each character probably ought to be able to do something constructive in a fight, and have a decent chance of getting back out of it so they can eventually reach the activities in which they do shine.

So, I don't think fixed hit points are necessary, as there are ways to shine other than by soaking up lots of damage. I don't think point-buy stats are required - but if point-buy isn't being used, I do have a GM's editorial step, where I make sure a character is not a superman or complete waste of time.

You and I think a lot alike in this regard.
 

Game Balance in general means that the game provides each player with either the same opportunities, chances and options, or with equivalent ones. Chess provides the players with many of the same options (the pieces) and theoretically equivalent opportunities (going first or second), although IIRC at the extreme high level, going first is more valuable. Risk provides each player with the same chances each time he sits down to the table, but those chances won't result in the same options and often won't result in the same opportunities (randomly ending up with no way to control a continent, for example).

Balance in traditional RPGs is somewhat complicated by two factors: first, most of the players are on the same side, and second, the 'game' doesn't usually end with the 'session.'

I. THE PLAYERS ARE MOSTLY ON THE SAME SIDE

This is where the concept of 'spotlight balance' comes in. Basically, it means that each player should be able to contribute meaningfully in any situation that takes more than a few minutes real time to resolve.

(Caveat: This assumes all the players WANT to contribute meaningfully in any situation, which is not always the case. Too often I see people assume that a player who sits back and doesn't do much in certain situations (usually either combat or in-character dialogue) is 'dragging the game down' or 'not having fun.' I fail to see how this is the case; if they aren't involved, then they're intentionally relinquishing the spotlight to the other players in that circumstance, and what's wrong with that?)

Since combat in D&D takes a great deal more time than other activities, 'spotlight balance' is usually achieved by the same thing 'tactical balance' is: making characters combat options roughly equivalently useful. This is one of two reasons I refer to D&D as a 'Tactics/RPG,' the other being that by default it places combat on a 2D grid to allow the players to visually grasp the tactical situation.

In a cooperative game in which combat was resolved with a single roll but, say, cooking took an hour real-time to resolve, rough equivalence in cooking options would then become the priority. Spycraft gives us a good example of non-combat activities that can take a lot of in-game time to resolve, in its Dramatic Conflicts. I'm not entirely sure it allows all the players to involve themselves sufficiently for my tastes, but it is an example of a relatively traditional RPG with a set of in-depth non-combat rules.

Of course, being equally ABLE to contribute and contributing equally are two very different things - this is where involvement and play skill come into play (equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity).

II. THE GAME DOESN'T END WITH THE SESSION

My rule when it comes to randomization is this: if it has an impact for the entire campaign, it is inappropriate for it to be random. If it has an impact for only the current session, it is appropriate for it to be random. That means, basically, max hit points, ability scores and character death are things I don't want the dice determining. Everything else is fair game.

(Caveat: My personal preference, just in terms of the kind of games I like, is for considerably less randomness even in play; it has nothing to do with the ease or complexity of the system - chess is as difficult as your opponent can make it and has all of one random element, for example - it's just my preference. However, I don't think this is a design principle.)

I would not be opposed to random hit points if they were 'done wrong' as I've seen several people say they did the first time they played: rolled anew each session. This puts starting randomness on a per-session rather than per-campaign basis.

Rolling ability scores each session would be a huge pain, so I'm *always* opposed to rolling for those.

Gameplay-dictated character death, or more specifically randomization-dictated character death, has a huge impact in my games, because the settings I use don't have Rez-marts like core D&D. Worse, however, is the effect randomization-dictated death has on the style of play and what the game's simulation elements are simulating.

III. WHAT, IF ANYTHING, IS BEING SIMULATED

Any argument that begins with "but in the real world" or the equivalent automatically fails to move me; D&D is not the real world. It is a game. "In the real world," a lone footman in a lucky position is not going to "kill" a fortress, yet in chess a pawn can take a rook. "In the real world," coherent nation states do not crop up with provinces in random locations all over the world and then wage war in large part to achieve geographic unity, yet in Risk this is what they do.

D&D is also a heroic fantasy game. What makes "sense" for a player character is what makes "sense" for an action hero in a movie, or the protagonist of a Sword and Sorcery yarn - not what would make sense for even a highly skilled person in real life. If doing what would make sense for the latter is rewarded (with life, wealth and XP) and doing what makes sense for the former is penalized (with death, negative modifiers and failed missions), then the game is not simulating what it should be: its source material.
 

Doug McCrae said:
Hit points are an abstract game concept. They don't tell you anything about the individual. Player choice can be used to min/max or not min/max. The great thing is, it's up to the player how to use this power. I'm not in favour of fixed weapon damage. You could always calculate your chance to hit AC X in any edition. Those numbers will indeed average out over the long term. The problem with random rolls for stats and hit points is that it's much fewer rolls. It only gets the chance to average out if there's a lot of PCs per player and/or a high PC turnover.

Which is exactly how 1e was supposed to work! And this is why such randomisation no longer works in the era of skill points, feat choices and PCs with names.
When I speak of individuality I am not refering to personality in this instance, I am talking about characters and their ability scores. If every 5th level cleric has 40 hit points, doesn't that make the game seem static and stale?

While you can calculate your chances of hitting with every edition, 3.0+ have moved into a system that favors min/maxing. In fact, most of the character classes favor this. More on this later, I have to get back to work.

What is next, get rid of die rolling all together? No to hit roll for combat?
 

If every 5th level cleric has 40 hit points, doesn't that make the game seem static and stale?

No.

First of all, unless constitution bonuses are being dropped, that's not going to happen. Second, try this- if you have one 5th level cleric with 30 hit points, and one with 25, does this meaningfully affect your gameplay? Do you relish the chance to play the one with the slightly higher chance of dying? Are there roleplay possibilities there? Is there any meaningful affect on the character at all?

Not really. It doesn't add anything to the game.

Except that's not really true. Randomization does add something to the game- the chance that you'll be the sucker who gets to play the 5th level cleric with 13 hit points because you rolled terribly. Which is lame.

Making hit points standardized makes characters standardized about the same way that our present system of standard attack bonuses makes characters standardized.
 

While you can calculate your chances of hitting with every edition, 3.0+ have moved into a system that favors min/maxing. In fact, most of the character classes favor this. More on this later, I have to get back to work.

Ah, sorry, I didn't realize you started this as an Edition War. Thanks for the convo.
 

I look for each of the primary character builds to have an equal opportunity to shine within a game session, and that's pretty much about it. The most important thing about that is that it is an opportunity I want, not a guaranteed result: if I screw up playing the character or the dice turn against me, let 'em fall where they may.

To me, that means that we still use dice for combat, skill tests, damage and so forth, but the baseline for character creation isn't random. Stat points, hit points and class abilities shouldn't be randomly determined.

With that said, I do like the card method that Psion has discussed for determining ability scores, since it has a strong element of determinism to it without being entirely fixed. Random hit points, however...bleh!

Just my $.02.

--Steve
 

Hussar said:
Ah, sorry, I didn't realize you started this as an Edition War. Thanks for the convo.
It is not my intent to edition bash or have an edition war, but I tried to write it out 4 different ways and I didn't come up with anything that would make you beleive otherwise.

Anyway, one of the things I was trying to figure out with this thread is why people feel they need max hit points each level to make their characters feel balanced and fair. IMO this would just make the characters seem static and stale. Yes, role-playing makes them different, but stat wise they are the same.

I can't write more on this without you continueing to think I am making an edition war, thanks for the comments though ;)
 
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DM-Rocco said:
When I speak of individuality I am not refering to personality in this instance, I am talking about characters and their ability scores. If every 5th level cleric has 40 hit points, doesn't that make the game seem static and stale?

Absolutely. The fact that we both have 40 base hit points totally means our characters are completely identical.

What is next, get rid of die rolling all together? No to hit roll for combat?

I've reduced all of my D&D games to a single die roll in order to reduce all that unnecessary rolling. My players show up, I flip a coin, and I tell them whether they won the session (heads) or lost (tails).

The game is much improved.
 

Cadfan said:
No.

First of all, unless constitution bonuses are being dropped, that's not going to happen. Second, try this- if you have one 5th level cleric with 30 hit points, and one with 25, does this meaningfully affect your gameplay? Do you relish the chance to play the one with the slightly higher chance of dying? Are there roleplay possibilities there? Is there any meaningful affect on the character at all?

Not really. It doesn't add anything to the game.

Except that's not really true. Randomization does add something to the game- the chance that you'll be the sucker who gets to play the 5th level cleric with 13 hit points because you rolled terribly. Which is lame.

Making hit points standardized makes characters standardized about the same way that our present system of standard attack bonuses makes characters standardized.

What makes you think I was dropping the Con scores? If you are a fan of standard hit points each level, let's say the cleric gets the above average score of 5 out of 8, so the game is now 5 hit points a level for a cleric. Of course, if you favor standard hitpoints across the board, then there is a fair chance that you also favor point buy for characters versus die rolling. Say you play in a system of elite aray of scores and you place every cleric with a 14 Con. They also at 5th level have a standard +2 Con belt, now they get an additional +3 per level to Con. Thus 40 hit points for a 5th level cleric.

Now, as a fighter with standard point buy, you only have to do 40 points of damage to each cleric of 5th level and then you can move on to the next target.

This is a bit of a far fetched senerio, but is it any different that all orcs have 4 hitpoints, every sword deals 8 + Str damage, etc. This is what I mean by static. In a world where everything is standard, it takes something away from the game. IMO.

It doesn't equal balance to me.

Yes, you might get screwed once by a hitpoint die roll, but a fair DM will usually allow a second roll if it happens twice in a row, if that is your major concern. Plus, so many characters are so weighed down with magic and buffs, your misfortune of rolling a 1 on your hitpoints is a small problem at best, unless it happens at level one or two of course.
 

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