Game Breaker Spells - What are they?

[ruemere]

(very imho)

Gamebreaking spell - a spell which negates important aspect of the game.

So, any spell which makes any of the following activities by making them redundant or meaningless, should be considered to be game breaking:
- skill use.
- planning.
- building fortifications.
- long travels.
- assassinations (or stealth missions).
- negotiations & politics.
- wars.

Also, important spell issues to be considered game breaking:
- save or lose character.
- make non-magic character feel useless.
- make use of magic the most important part of the game.
- make spell preparation the most time consuming activity in and out of the game.

Three simple examples of such spells would be:
- Knock - skill use.
- Teleport - long travels.
- Scry - most of the above.

Should the magic power of D20 be nerfed? Not necessarily. The rules of the game should allow for easier (and mundane or near mundane) negation (or in-game nerfing of effect scale) of such spells.

An example of a simple game breaking activity n 3.0/3.5.

We have an evil ruler of an evil empire. The guy is pretty intelligent and resourceful.

So, the day starts with 20 clerics casting divinations with regard to possible assassination attempts or other stuff hot headed good-aligned people are wont to do. Enter the SWAT team with SH&T combo.

Dinner time, the ruler's academy of magicians scries all petty kings of nearby countries. Enter the SWAT team with SH&T combo.

It's time for supper and last major players - guys, who could have afforded in-freaking-credibly expensive Forbiddance, various wards and other anti-magic spells.
Time to bomb the cities with mundane, but sufficiently heavy rocks (as the old Alien saying went, "Let's take off and nuke them from the orbit"). Enter the SWAT team...

Curtain falls.

Summing it up in RTS terms:
The first nation to invent and build Academy of Applied Battle Magic wins. Smacks of bad game design.


Regards,
Ruemere

 

[VirgilCaine]

Teleport:
Suddenly, the group doesn't have to travel to a place (no more wilderness encounters for you - which might not be that bad). But the most important game breaking element is the combination with "Scry" - suddenly you can get to your enemy anytime you want.

Adamantine Fail. Fail beyond words.

I keep seeing this myth perpretrated again and again and again.

Read the spell.

Read it again.

Read it again.

Read Greater Teleport, twice.

These spells allow nothing of the sort.

Notice the requirements? Knowledge of layout and location of the target area. Tell me how you are going to locate the villain's hideout using a spell that takes one hour to cast and lasts 1 minute per level.

How many times are you going to scry on him before he notices?
How many enemies do you think he has that try this trick?

The enemy will not approach road signs, and use code names for destinations, targets, and allies. How much time to you need to note and combine specific details about the flora and fauna of where he is to find him?
What about rock formations underground? Can you identify where he is underground by the rock face?
Can you place accents well?

Note the dangers of teleportation: natural or magical energy can make teleportation more dangerous or even impossible.

Without solid information as to the location of the enemy and the trustworthiness of the scrying spell, you take your life in your hands when casting this spell.

Any enemy that can would locate his demesne in an area dangerous to teleportation or create one using Control Weather, or use an ancient, already Forbiddanced temple as his base.

Most D&D worlds have had magic work the same way for thousands of years. One would only need to make a Spellcraft skill roll to know Teleports limitations, but fortunately, there's hundreds of other people who came before the villains who set up long-lasting, durable fortresses or temples.

Teleport and Greater Teleport are spells for escape and quick return to a group base or fortified temple of Good (or whatever alignment).

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Spells already have a limitation. The powerful ones can't be cast frequently.

See also: "Yeah, he can destroy the universe with a single thought, but he can only do it twice per day, so it's all good."

 

[ruemere]

Adamantine Fail. Fail beyond words. [...]

Notice the requirements? Knowledge of layout and location of the target area. Tell me how you are going to locate the villain's hideout using a spell that takes one hour to cast and lasts 1 minute per level.

It may be a good idea to give some credit to people criticizing the spells.

You don't need to scry the villain. You can scry him through his pets, servants. You can employ variety of animal or magical spies to carry forward the focus of your spells. Some familiars make for perfect scrying mediums.

Also, your arguments assume a moving target while all you need to do is to catch them during their downtime, when they rest or so. Kings and queens, by the virtue of being rulers, are much more predictable. And my personal gripe is that any type of settled organization, government or guild, is a sitting duck for hostile magic activity.

Finally, you don't need to teleport... Dimension door is much more practical for staging covert operations - so just teleport your strike force within the range of successful Dimension door spell.

How many times are you going to scry on him before he notices?
How many enemies do you think he has that try this trick?

So? Scry him when he sleeps. Scry him through his servants. Employ spies for scrying (birds are usually the best choice).

The enemy will not approach road signs, and use code names for destinations, targets, and allies. How much time to you need to note and combine specific details about the flora and fauna of where he is to find him?
What about rock formations underground? Can you identify where he is underground by the rock face?
Can you place accents well?

Note the dangers of teleportation: natural or magical energy can make teleportation more dangerous or even impossible.

Patience is the key. As someone said, you need to get successful only once.

Without solid information as to the location of the enemy and the trustworthiness of the scrying spell, you take your life in your hands when casting this spell.

Not mine. Any intelligent spelluser will employ expendable mercenaries (adventurers).

Any enemy that can would locate his demesne in an area dangerous to teleportation or create one using Control Weather, or use an ancient, already Forbiddanced temple as his base.

As we know, such areas come in large supply in most d20 settings.
After all, 3000 gold pieces (the minimum cost for Forbiddance) is but a day's savings for all temples.

Most D&D worlds have had magic work the same way for thousands of years. One would only need to make a Spellcraft skill roll to know Teleports limitations, but fortunately, there's hundreds of other people who came before the villains who set up long-lasting, durable fortresses or temples.

Teleport and Greater Teleport are spells for escape and quick return to a group base or fortified temple of Good (or whatever alignment).

This is 21st century. Some people actually think that there should be in-game farmers harvesting in-game grain for the purpose of supporting in-game economy. And that in-game rulers should not be forced to employ super-expensive high level powers to survive an evening.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[VirgilCaine]

You don't need to scry the villain. You can scry him through his pets, servants. You can employ variety of animal or magical spies to carry forward the focus of your spells. Some familiars make for perfect scrying mediums.

Which allow for many more saves, and require an hour's prep time and only a few minutes of observation at a time. Seems very prone to being noticed and counteracted. Also extremely impractical.

Of course, there's the distinct possibility enemy organizations might have counter-intelligence preparations after thousands of years of existence...like evil churches have.

Also, your arguments assume a moving target while all you need to do is to catch them during their downtime, when they rest or so. Kings and queens, by the virtue of being rulers, are much more predictable. And my personal gripe is that any type of settled organization, government or guild, is a sitting duck for hostile magic activity.

Yes, I'm assuming we're speaking in terms of PC use of the spells vs. villains, not villains attacking kings and whatnot, which would be the only real practical use of scrying, to learn people's routines.

How can you gather information on where the enemy is when he is asleep?

Finally, you don't need to teleport... Dimension door is much more practical for staging covert operations - so just teleport your strike force within the range of successful Dimension door spell.

So? Scry him when he sleeps. Scry him through his servants. Employ spies for scrying (birds are usually the best choice).

Birds? You can wait for a bird to randomly fly within 10' feet of the BBEG without him noticing and worrying? You do know scrying has a 10' sight radius, right?

If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and the subject’s immediate surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject).

Patience is the key. As someone said, you need to get successful only once.

Not mine. Any intelligent spelluser will employ expendable mercenaries (adventurers).

Of course, you only need to keep doing it to fail after several times of wasting spells.

Long-term, it's best to stick with what works--walking in and killing them the old-fashioned way.

I've also never understood how placing yourself in an enemy stronghold where you don't know the situation or terrain or the disposition of the enemy to be a good idea.

Higher-level NPC manipulating PCs to take the danger for them...proxy wars between spellcasters isn't my idea of a good time.

As we know, such areas come in large supply in most d20 settings.
After all, 3000 gold pieces (the minimum cost for Forbiddance) is but a day's savings for all temples.

Of course, you make the fatal mistake of assuming the game world came into existence five minutes ago, when you created it OOG.
In-game, often thousands of years have passed allowing for a large amount of such places to be accumulated over time.
I mean really, is there a D&D campaign setting where magic hasn't existed for thousands of years?

This is 21st century. Some people actually think that there should be in-game farmers harvesting in-game grain for the purpose of supporting in-game economy. And that in-game rulers should not be forced to employ super-expensive high level powers to survive an evening.

Regards,
Ruemere

Nondetection items are super-expensive? Easily justified as being thousands of years old and paid off long ago. Or received as a coronation gift from a mage's guild.

You act like every new king has to pay for everything out of his own budget, like there hasn't been hundreds or thousands of years of history for kings to build up these kinds of things.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Murderous mist is irritating.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Which allow for many more saves, and require an hour's prep time and only a few minutes of observation at a time. Seems very prone to being noticed and counteracted. Also extremely impractical.

Of course, there's the distinct possibility enemy organizations might have counter-intelligence preparations after thousands of years of existence...like evil churches have.



Yes, I'm assuming we're speaking in terms of PC use of the spells vs. villains, not villains attacking kings and whatnot, which would be the only real practical use of scrying, to learn people's routines.

How can you gather information on where the enemy is when he is asleep?



Birds? You can wait for a bird to randomly fly within 10' feet of the BBEG without him noticing and worrying? You do know scrying has a 10' sight radius, right?





Of course, you only need to keep doing it to fail after several times of wasting spells.

Long-term, it's best to stick with what works--walking in and killing them the old-fashioned way.

I've also never understood how placing yourself in an enemy stronghold where you don't know the situation or terrain or the disposition of the enemy to be a good idea.

Higher-level NPC manipulating PCs to take the danger for them...proxy wars between spellcasters isn't my idea of a good time.



Of course, you make the fatal mistake of assuming the game world came into existence five minutes ago, when you created it OOG.
In-game, often thousands of years have passed allowing for a large amount of such places to be accumulated over time.
I mean really, is there a D&D campaign setting where magic hasn't existed for thousands of years?



Nondetection items are super-expensive? Easily justified as being thousands of years old and paid off long ago. Or received as a coronation gift from a mage's guild.

You act like every new king has to pay for everything out of his own budget, like there hasn't been hundreds or thousands of years of history for kings to build up these kinds of things.

But why introduce all these spells and then saying "Ah, yes, they exist, but their application is rare. To many counter-measures"? I think it would be better if they were balanced in and on themselves. And why did nobody ever invent counter-counter measures?

Teleport is a good spell, most of the time. But it should have inherent limitations. A Teleport spell could require you to teleport to a teleportation portal, or a special mark you set to get there.
This will even allow you to keep the "scry-buff-teleport" attack, but only if the plot allows it - you scry to check when the king and his arch mage are en route to their teleportation portal to get to the princess' marriage ceremony in Far-Far-Away land, and attack them once they reach the teleportation platform...

 

[James Heard]

I think, given what we already know about 4e, that it's not unreasonable to expect spells like teleport to be "per encounter" sorts of things. That would seriously nerf the poof/boom/poof magical assassin trick when they have to sit around for ten minutes without minions busting in and exacting vengeance. What would help even more is if using it caused a problematic condition for some period of time after you 'ported, "dazed and cannot cast spells?" Suddenly all sorts of sniping became more complex.

I think that Fly would work if it slotted into the same slot as Invisibility. I don't know how you'd do that, but I think you could design your system where certain magical madness couldn't operate on top of the other the same way that you can't wear two magical cloaks without much difficulty. Even so, I wouldn't shed a tear if it kept you aloft for a round or two and then you had to touch down before you could take off into the air once more.

But seriously, I'd just toss Find the Path and Speak with the Dead entirely. It doesn't even matter if they're problematic or not, they're just not very heroic. "I talk to dead people" makes for a pretty good M. Night Shamaylan movie, but IMO the proper way to talk to the dead in D&D is right before you cut out their black, vampiric hearts.

 

[VirgilCaine]

But why introduce all these spells and then saying "Ah, yes, they exist, but their application is rare. To many counter-measures"? I think it would be better if they were balanced in and on themselves. And why did nobody ever invent counter-counter measures?

Ah, but why do people complain about problems that don't exist, if they would only read the spells?
Very, very tiring. All the time, "teleport can do this", and "teleport can do that", and "scry-buff-teleport screws up games"...I'm not seeing it as being worth it in the long run to teleport offensively.

If your world has lots of independent, recklessly insane leveled individuals, okay, but 90% in my campaigns are part of an organization that values it's members lives and teaches them that unless it is in the gravest extreme, teleport should not be used offensively, as at best you'll waste spells and at worst you'll waste lives.

Teleport is a good spell, most of the time. But it should have inherent limitations. A Teleport spell could require you to teleport to a teleportation portal, or a special mark you set to get there.

The spell already has significant inherent limitations, if you haven't noticed.

 

[StarFyre]

it doesn't really matter

For those (me included) who like to have options (ie. every spell from every edition, every monster, etc)...it doesn't matter what Wizards does.

We can easily add a spell back into 4E.

It's probably harder for them to remove what they find game breaking and or to rebalance it, than it is for us to just add it back/change it as we want...

Overall, not a big deal.

Sanjay