Game Breaker Spells - What are they?

[hong]

If you don't like those spells just remove them from your game and leave them in for those who like using them. I don't see how Save or Die spells are so detrimental to the game, especially how raise dead, ressurection, and instant full heal spells are so plentiful by the time the party gets high enough to use or be targeted by such spells. You want save or die spells removed, fine. Lets also remove Raise Dead, Reincarnation, Resurrection, True Ressurection, and Heal spells as well.

Exactly.

Well, maybe not heal, but otherwise, exactly.

 

[Merlion]

Oh, I am very calm. I just don't see why they should remove of change spells that aren't a problem or only a problem for only some people.

Thats a lot of what this game, and most of what this forum is about. The game itself is constantly being changed by the designers, and people are constantly changing their own games with house rules.

There are spells in D&D that simply arent balanced with the rest of the system. There are also some that can be very challenging for DMs to work around, while still running the game they want to run. And people are merely discussing those issues...I dont see the problem, and I just have to wonder, if you really dont think there are any problems spells, why did you post?

 

[hong]

I think an open-ended wish is fine as a capstone spell (30th level or whatever). The messing around with the wording of wishes is a tradition in D&D that I actually don't mind keeping.

The current 3E setup is a good compromise between a spell that is totally freeform and one that is completely mechanical: there are some "routine" uses that just work, while other uses are completely at the DM's mercy. If you're a conservative player and don't want to risk being screwed over, then you can stick to the routine uses. If you and your DM like the wording game, then you can have fun with that too. And this gives a free plot-device spell for DMs to handwave NPCs accomplishing wacky things.

 

[Merlion]

I also agree that True Seeing and Mind Blank are a bit of a shaft to Illusionists and Enchanters (and any other character or being who uses a lot of that type of magic.)

The most obvious solution would be requiring a check of some kind. Or perhaps breaking the spells into several spells of various levels that only affect lower level spells.


Generally, my biggest spell related issues tend to be spell-class interactions and assignments. For instance, Clerics getting spells like Divine Power that make them into another class, or like Flame Strike that do another classes spell's job better than they do, or Wizards not getting Spell Resistance.

 

[WarlockLord]

I like save or dies, and don't think they should be nerfed. Instead, the PCs (and important BBEGS) should get an action point/fate point/metagame point/plot point/anti-whiny point system, so that they don't get nuked on these things. (Instead of dying, you can reroll). Keep hold person's save evey round. Get rid of no-save effects like stun ray. Also, they should be high level and among the Vancian spells.

Most of the 'omg, it's broken' stuff (polymorph, summoning, death effects, confusion, etc) should stay. It's cool and cinematic, and if you remove it, you get Runescape style magic. Maybe not with the overpriced, annoying rune system, but the 'oog. Me mage. Me shoot lights. Oog.'

Simplify by all means, but don't remove these classics.

My reroll point idea: Every PC gets one (1) reroll a day. This can be a save, attack, whatever.

This would be also with save-or-dies as Vancian effects. And polymorph should be self only.

 

[Imp]

Sure, those spells are great. If the environment supports them. But if the battle is going to last say ~4 rounds, then spells that a few rounds to become effective are dicey. Casting something had better make a significant impact right away - perhaps if not on the caster's action, then on the rest of his team's turns. The threat of say Call of Stone is much greater if the battle is going to last 10 rounds.

Well, yeah, who uses Doom spells in Final Fantasy games? That's why something like Slay Living ought to stun its target while it drains his hit points/Con. You want the guy clutching at his heart trying to keep it beating, not running up in a hurry, raging or whatever, and power-attacking the cleric into paste the next round. That's for his buddies to do. (Call of Stone does slow its target down, at least. It's a 4th-level spell, you can't expect too much.) Likewise Phantasmal Killer ought to drain Int or Wis or even Cha (more slowly, and maybe lose the double save) as the character is overcome with visions of his worst fears...

Disintegrate should maybe just do a whopping amount of damage on a failed save. Power Word Kill could drop a guy instantly though, it's another capstone ability, or should be, I think.

 

[hong]

Save-or-stun is, for most practical purposes, the same as save-or-die.

I think the idea of using hp as a hurdle for the most powerful effects is a great one, either on its own or in conjunction with a hero/fate point system. It effectively turns these effects into finishing moves, which nicely turns around the usual dynamic for a D&D fight. Right now, there's usually very little incentive to do anything else but open with your biggest attack; from then on, the intensity generally degrades as people run down their allotments of boom spells, hit points, buffs, etc. This is the opposite of what you commonly see in fights in books and movies, where the intensity ramps up over time, with the biggest hits coming towards the end.

 

[MarkB]

Supposedly we're going to get a SWSE-style Condition Track this edition. How about if save-or-X spells push you (temporarily) one step further down the Condition Track each round, and when you hit the Unconsciousness level they have their primary effect, whether that be turning you to stone, killing you, paralysing you, etc. If you manage to shake off the spell effect, you return to the position on the tracker you would have been without the spell.

That way, the spell is doing something useful each round (imposing extra penalties to the target), is more effective against targets that have already been softened up (making them better as a finishing move than a first resort), and doesn't intrude upon the hit-point-damage schtick of conventional attack spells.

 

[hong]

Supposedly we're going to get a SWSE-style Condition Track this edition. How about if save-or-X spells push you (temporarily) one step further down the Condition Track each round, and when you hit the Unconsciousness level they have their primary effect, whether that be turning you to stone, killing you, paralysing you, etc. If you manage to shake off the spell effect, you return to the position on the tracker you would have been without the spell.

That way, the spell is doing something useful each round (imposing extra penalties to the target), is more effective against targets that have already been softened up (making them better as a finishing move than a first resort), and doesn't intrude upon the hit-point-damage schtick of conventional attack spells.

One common house rule I've seen with D&D is that NPCs/monsters are either alive or dead. PCs get the benefit of the -10 hp unconsciousness buffer, but NPCs just go from alive to dead when they hit 0 hp. There are various reasons for this, primarily convenience (playing out killing 20 unconscious monsters is tedious) and campaign tone (finishing off unconscious or half-dead people isn't a very inspiring task).

Using the condition track in this way would make this house rule more difficult to implement, I would think. In fact, nothing even guarantees that NPCs will have the same condition track as PCs.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Supposedly we're going to get a SWSE-style Condition Track this edition. How about if save-or-X spells push you (temporarily) one step further down the Condition Track each round, and when you hit the Unconsciousness level they have their primary effect, whether that be turning you to stone, killing you, paralysing you, etc. If you manage to shake off the spell effect, you return to the position on the tracker you would have been without the spell.

That way, the spell is doing something useful each round (imposing extra penalties to the target), is more effective against targets that have already been softened up (making them better as a finishing move than a first resort), and doesn't intrude upon the hit-point-damage schtick of conventional attack spells.

I think the jury is still out on the 'Condition Track' issue, but if we have something like this (I hope we do), that would be a nice way of doing it.

Cheers