Game of Thrones 3.9 "The Rains of Castamere" (spoiler alert)

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

So you're saying the series should end by a comet destroying the planet.

Only if someone summoned the comet, deliberately or by accident. It all has to be someones fault, nothing by accident.

 

[Grue]

I'm still a bit split on Frey's decision here on whether it hangs logically with what the character would realistically do (even after all these years since reading the Red Wedding). GRR Martin is well aware of the 'guest right' importance throughout much of human history (the salt bond ritual with the Starks when they arrive in his hall is still practiced in some parts of the world), and that violating guest right beats out rebellion against the liege on the scale of Great Crimes. Extreme violation of hospitality is punished by the gods and Fate if no one else. Martin also establishes in Westeros they seem to take oaths\vows more seriously than our modern perspective of merely contractual promises... I'm pretty sure it's deliberate at this point that he makes a theme of punishing vow\oath breakers throughout the series... and the worse the violation the more they suffer. Your oath is more important than your life.

Anyway, not that guest right bonds were never violated but they historically are extremely rare and the infamy is long remembered in a number of cases. It usually ends badly for the violator as well. The same should be true in Westeros... Frey should be well aware that he's crossing a line which may doom his entire family. Frey is a bit of a fence sitting guttersnipe but he loves his family in his own perverse way. Another thought that should have been a forefront consideration for Walder Frey is the fact he should have considered his own swords and bannermen... they know their lord is the most honorless cur imaginable under their code of conduct. It changes the rules of the game for them and a feudal lord normally should worry that his own men should believe their lord will uphold his end of the bargain to them.

Additionally, I'm not sure Walder Frey's desire for revenge on Robb Stark and the promised payout (of Tully Riverrun lands IIRC) are high enough stakes to make the Red Wedding a worthwhile risk for the nominally cautious Frey. At that point in the story, the Lannister army is pretty much decimated despite their successful defense and being propped up by Highgarden... it would be highly unlikely the Lannister's could indulge in revenge and spend the blood and treasure necessary to break the Twins after the dust settled. Especially given the fact Lannister isn't adverse to bring houses like Tyrell back under their banner without any penalty. Closing the Twins to Robb should have been enough to ensure Frey's protection from Lannister revenge (and possibly some Riverrun lands)... unless there is a part of the deal I'm forgetting, Walder Frey just seemed to be selling too cheaply considering his established character and what he's being asked to deliver even though part of his motivation is revenge driven.

Though on the other hand, for story purposes Robb and his mom had to die. The Red Wedding probably is the best choice for that. It was shocking and it broke the mold that a lot of readers sort of expect 'safe' characters. I'm reasonably certain there is a core of 'safe' characters in the series (and who they are), Martin did shake-up the expectation that there were any with the Red Wedding.

 

[jonesy]

Walder is getting old. His family has never held much land. The Twins are important, but not that important. I think he's thinking about a legacy where he secures more for his children than just the same old castle. He has so many children that I don't think he really cares about survival that much. Just as long as there's someone in his family left standing to take control of his winnings.

 

[Herschel]

The part of "no character is safe" is kind of cool, so long as it's handled well. My initial prediction of Stannis being the last of the 5 Kings is looking better (he survived his moment of horror), Jon & Dany (Ice & Fire), Tyrion, Arya and now I'm thinking Bran also. If Sansa pulls her head out she could be one also, and Jamie seems to be on the path of trying to become likeable, which may not be a good thing also though.

Cersei and Margery will be interesting to watch, as will Varys and Littlefinger. Is Pycelle dead?

Of course this leaves out some unknown brother/cousin/uncle of Dany showing up in line ahead of her, or the illegitimate Barathean somehow stepping in line to be heir after Cersei and her kids are all dead or some such. I'm assuming more main players will be coming.

 

[jonesy]

Is Pycelle dead?

He was in Second Sons. Alive that is.

 

[Grue]

Likeable and especially naive characters snuff it in Martin's world. Sansa will likely be utterly transformed into a hardened political player if she is to survive but thus far the only thing keeping her alive has been the fact she's too valuable a prize to kill since she's is apparantly the last survivng link to forge a legitimate claim on the North. Storywise Sansa is disposable and I'm not entirely sure Martin knows what to do with her since I think it's pretty obvious his original outline of the main plot has totally dirifted from a War of the Roses backdrop with a 'supernatural threat they're supposed to stop' to the reverse (a supernatural threat backdrop with a War of the Roses story).

Not to get into how Martin painted himself into a corner...anyway...

Jamie is doomed. Besides the Freys, he's the biggest oathbreaker in the novels and Martin has a pretty set pattern of punishing those that violate their oaths. Jamie however is likely safe up to the moment the last of his children are dead, the ruin of everything he loves is apparent, and he's utterly broken. The blood of kings has divine power in Westeros and Jamie has betrayed two high kings...he's set up to suffer probably worse than Reek.

 

[NewJeffCT]

The part of "no character is safe" is kind of cool, so long as it's handled well. My initial prediction of Stannis being the last of the 5 Kings is looking better (he survived his moment of horror), Jon & Dany (Ice & Fire), Tyrion, Arya and now I'm thinking Bran also. If Sansa pulls her head out she could be one also, and Jamie seems to be on the path of trying to become likeable, which may not be a good thing also though.

Cersei and Margery will be interesting to watch, as will Varys and Littlefinger. Is Pycelle dead?

Of course this leaves out some unknown brother/cousin/uncle of Dany showing up in line ahead of her, or the illegitimate Barathean somehow stepping in line to be heir after Cersei and her kids are all dead or some such. I'm assuming more main players will be coming.

On the show, Grand Maester Pycelle is alive.

 

[jonesy]

A friend asked me: "Hell. When did Game of Thrones turn into Hamlet?"
I said: "Episode 1 if you're going by numbers. There were as many dead people in episode 1 as there are named characters in Hamlet. Maybe more depending on how many bodies there really are in the first scene."

 

[billd91]

Additionally, I'm not sure Walder Frey's desire for revenge on Robb Stark and the promised payout (of Tully Riverrun lands IIRC) are high enough stakes to make the Red Wedding a worthwhile risk for the nominally cautious Frey. At that point in the story, the Lannister army is pretty much decimated despite their successful defense and being propped up by Highgarden... it would be highly unlikely the Lannister's could indulge in revenge and spend the blood and treasure necessary to break the Twins after the dust settled. Especially given the fact Lannister isn't adverse to bring houses like Tyrell back under their banner without any penalty. Closing the Twins to Robb should have been enough to ensure Frey's protection from Lannister revenge (and possibly some Riverrun lands)... unless there is a part of the deal I'm forgetting, Walder Frey just seemed to be selling too cheaply considering his established character and what he's being asked to deliver even though part of his motivation is revenge driven.

I think it's reasonably credible. He breaks Stark power, neutralizes Tully, and ingratiates himself to Lannister who has money and the political power to arrange favorable marriages for the Frey brood. This is a major play for Walder. Probably his last shot at being a big mover. He may draw the opprobrium of breaking hospitality, but he did so do put paid to a family that was twice traitor to King's Landing. There's valuable spin that can be applied.

 

[Grue]

I think it's reasonably credible. He breaks Stark power, neutralizes Tully, and ingratiates himself to Lannister who has money and the political power to arrange favorable marriages for the Frey brood. This is a major play for Walder. Probably his last shot at being a big mover. He may draw the opprobrium of breaking hospitality, but he did so do put paid to a family that was twice traitor to King's Landing. There's valuable spin that can be applied.

If Walder Frey was more of a risk taker before the Red Wedding I think it would feel a bit more comfortably plausible. I'm probably forgetting something but I don't think anyone considered the Lannister grasp on the Iron Throne stable at that point. Walder delivers up an the last major force on the field that can threaten the Lannisters on a silver platter for ... Riverrun and maybe a few marriages. At the cost of utterly ruining the family name for generations assuming everything goes well or the utter destruction of his family if things don't go so well. I'm half tempted to reread the books but on reflection it feels like he's selling too cheap considering the risk\reward.

The Red Wedding works for a better story but I guess the essence of my quibble is that it doesn't fit logically with the character or even the established setting. Gods and magic are real in Westeros and the evidence of such is thick on the ground moreso than in our historical world... 700 foot tall walls, dragons only a few generations in the past, Atlantis level apocalypses, and folktales that probably have their origin in the not too distant past... but very few (if any I think if you look closey) of the major players are particularly superstitious or even religious. Breaking the salt bond is a sacred oath... murdering guests invites the worst wrath of the gods\Fate and not just men and Walder crosses that line for a few fees and marriages in a world where superstitious claptrap is real.

Heh, this is probably an area for me to put on the blinders but it does sort of break the quasi-medieval setting for me considering how weakly held faith and religion seem to be in the series.