GAME OF THRONES #3: Breaker of Chains ACT 42 Chapter 4-2014

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Breaker of Chains
In the frenzied aftermath of the royal wedding, Tyrion gets a visit from a loyal subject, but wonders if anyone in his family will help him out of his current predicament. Meanwhile, Tywin offers to work for the common good with a presumed enemy; Sam takes stock of the personnel at Castle Black; the Hound gives another life lesson to Arya; and Daenerys makes a decision outside the walls of Meereen





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Running Theme--All Men Must Die: A Fool of a Knight---for gold.
 
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Just saw that...had a busy day.
No excuses!!!

And the descriptions are different..;)
He has a clip, but in any case, since there are now more replies in this thread, I'm going to stick with this one.

I saw an interview with Jack Gleeson about this episode last week. He said it was his favorite episode because all he had to do was lay there and take a nap with the coins on his eyes while everyone else had to work.
 

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What a way to go on your final day of work....;)

No excuses!!!

He has a clip, but in any case, since there are now more replies in this thread, I'm going to stick with this one.

I saw an interview with Jack Gleeson about this episode last week. He said it was his favorite episode because all he had to do was lay there and take a nap with the coins on his eyes while everyone else had to work.
 
What a way to go on your final day of work....;)
Well, some actors will kill for a good death scene in their careers; he certainly got his.

I see people elsewhere on the interwebs are getting bent about the Jamie/Cersei scene. I'm not sure why. Yeah, it was sick and twisted, but hardly the worst thing in the series so far. Perhaps I could agree that there is too much gratuitous shock value, but I doubt that will abate. With the books compressed into the series, the buffers between shocks have been cut out.
 

Avaru

Villager
I see people elsewhere on the interwebs are getting bent about the Jamie/Cersei scene. I'm not sure why. Yeah, it was sick and twisted, but hardly the worst thing in the series so far. Perhaps I could agree that there is too much gratuitous shock value, but I doubt that will abate. With the books compressed into the series, the buffers between shocks have been cut out.
People get raped IRL a lot more than they get crossbow bolts into their heads, getting killed by ghosts or getting their manly parts sawn off. And also, they are main characters, you usually do that kind of thing to extras only...
 
And also, they are main characters, you usually do that kind of thing to extras only...
That's pretty much the GoT/ASoIaF signature, though: don't get too attached to the main characters, because the good ones will do bad things (or vice versa) and the ones you get most attached to are likely to die in a sudden, brutal manner. Par for the course, in other words.
 

DrunkonDuty

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Now I know this is a pretty rough show. And I can cope with the horrible aspects. It is the gritty and horrible that make the show what it is. What bugs me is that it is that the scene with Jamie and Cersei goes directly against Jaime's character growth and background. It did not ring true to the character in any way. Nor did it add to the story. It was gratuitous and unnecessary. I can just imagine the scene in the production office with the producers and studio execs sitting around saying "We need something to shock the audience. But we can't kill anyone important, we just did that in Ep 2. I know, let's rape a central female character!"

I think Scott Meslow has done a fine job of summing up the wider issues here: http://theweek.com/article/index/260173/the-sexual-politics-of-game-of-thrones-just-got-enormously-worse

I would like to add that the characters are not acting in a random manner or just to shock the audience or even just to advance the plot. Martin is a better writer than that. His characters grow and act in ways that are in accordance with who they are. This change in the show and in the dynamic between two important characters is the work of hacks, not writers.
 

Ahnehnois

Villager
I don't get what the big deal is with the Jamie/Cersei thing (as a non-book reader). He's been battered, imprisoned, and emasculated for years (in RL time; not sure how long the Starks had him in their timeline), and even when he finally gets back home, he does so missing a hand, his position is mocked by the king and the hand and his professional life seems to be over, and his illicit sister/lover has the nerve to reject him and then ask him to kill their brother for doing something that they both probably realize he didn't do and which they both know was for the best anyway.

Not that what he did to her was a good thing, but there was an abundance of reason for him to do it. Him finally taking out his pent-up anger and frustration seemed in-character to me. I can't say I ever bought him as being redemptive in the first place. And, as one writer noted, if he had just taken a sword and impaled Cersei, people would have cheered her death almost as hard as they did the death of her son. I don't get why this whole thing has become a news story.

***

On an unrelated note, Oberyn is killing it. He's only been in a few scenes but his presence is so powerful you wouldn't know it. His confrontation with the de facto king was priceless. The stuff at the end of the show seemed a little silly to me with the horseman making a fool out of himself and the good ol' magical voice enhancement kicking in so people a mile away can hear a smallish woman speaking. But the titular gag at the end was pretty good.
 

DrunkonDuty

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"... there was an abundance of reason for him to do it. Him finally taking out his pent-up anger and frustration seemed in-character to me."

We will have to disagree about this. Yes, Jaime is a violent man. He's a bloody killer. I can see him taking out his frustration in a fight if he gets the chance. But even above being a killer one thing that has been a part of the Jamie character since day 1 is that he loves Cersei above all others, even himself. He would not attack her. If he had killed her instead I would be just as disappointed in the story for the same reason as him raping her. It doesn't fit the character.

And yes, Jaime's story is one of redemption. Will he make it? Don't know. Most likely, if he gets close, he'll die because, hey, this is Game of Thrones. This is what we tune in for. Jaime falling again would also be fine - the chance of failure is part of the drama. But failing in this particular fashion... It makes no sense. The only reason I can see for it is some hack of a producer/studio exec saying "we need to sex this story arc up."

(There's a whole pile of essays as to the sexual political implications of the rape. But I shall avoid commenting on drama that has yet to play out.)

****

On the note of Oberyn. Yes, he is killing it. The actor, Pedro Pascal, is brilliant. I loved his chat with Cersei and Tywin at the wedding.
 
"... there was an abundance of reason for him to do it. Him finally taking out his pent-up anger and frustration seemed in-character to me."

We will have to disagree about this. Yes, Jaime is a violent man. He's a bloody killer. I can see him taking out his frustration in a fight if he gets the chance. But even above being a killer one thing that has been a part of the Jamie character since day 1 is that he loves Cersei above all others, even himself. He would not attack her. If he had killed her instead I would be just as disappointed in the story for the same reason as him raping her. It doesn't fit the character.

And yes, Jaime's story is one of redemption. Will he make it? Don't know. Most likely, if he gets close, he'll die because, hey, this is Game of Thrones. This is what we tune in for. Jaime falling again would also be fine - the chance of failure is part of the drama. But failing in this particular fashion... It makes no sense. The only reason I can see for it is some hack of a producer/studio exec saying "we need to sex this story arc up."

(There's a whole pile of essays as to the sexual political implications of the rape. But I shall avoid commenting on drama that has yet to play out.)

****

On the note of Oberyn. Yes, he is killing it. The actor, Pedro Pascal, is brilliant. I loved his chat with Cersei and Tywin at the wedding.
I read an interview with Martin about the rape. He didn't write this episode, and the scene in the book is different. [sblock=Book spoliers that don't really matter because this part has already passed, but you never know. There might be someone who will get upset about it, so...]Martin suggests that part of the reason for the change in the show was due to the differing timelines between the book and the show. In the show, Jaimie has been back for a few weeks, while in the book he has just returned. The bitterness between Cercei and Jaimie hasn't developed in the book. In the show, Cercei has become very cold towards Jaimie. In order to keep the sex scene with Joffrey's body there, the writers had to do something. I guess they thought this would do.[/sblock]
 

Ahnehnois

Villager
I don't see anything redemptive about Jaime at all. He only ever looked good in comparison to the rest of his family, and because he couldn't hurt anyone while he was in chains. I can't say that I ever saw his relationship with his sister as genuine love, more selfishness and desperation (in that the Lannisters are such psychopaths that the only people they can understand and relate to are each other).

And I don't think that all his tribulations were character building. When people come through those things, they are traumatized. Soldiers come back from war with PTSD and amputations, and the military has a big rape problem. These two things are not unconnected. It's an ugly truth, but I don't see it as being character assassination to say that Jaime is pretty much soulless at this point.

And frankly, two major things happened in that scene. One was Cersei putting out a hit on their brother. The other was Jaime's sexual aggression. Of those two things, the former is clearly much worse. Indeed, there are many, many worse things on this show than a misbegotten relationship degenerating into abuse. I'd argue that Jaime's worst moment was trying to assassinate Ned Stark and slaughtering other innocents in the process; this doesn't even come close.
 

DrunkonDuty

Explorer
Mmmm. I thought the reasoning behind writing it this way would be something like this. Frankly I think other ways could have been found. But hey, they aren't paying me to write the screen play. Or cut the show (mores the pity.)

Let's hope they can write themselves out of this without making light of the rape.
 

DrunkonDuty

Explorer
@ Ahnehnois

Well the books make it clear that Jaime truly loves his sister. I think there's hints of that in the show, but maybe not enough for someone who hasn't read the books to pick up on them. (I have no idea if you've read them or not, it's merely a general statement.) I agree that Jaime is pretty far gone as a human being. But this isn't to say he's beyond redemption. It just means he has a long way to go. A hell of a long way. Brienne might get him there.

I admit I hadn't thought about the connections between PTSD and rape. But I do see your point. And therefore I can see a case being made for Jamie's actions being right. (In terms of being true to his character development ONLY. Obviously not the moral implications which are horrible.) I remain to be convinced of this as yet; I shall have to wait until the drama plays itself out.

To be honest I don't think of any of the Lannisters as psychopaths. Bad people. Very, very bad people. But in all their cases there's some redeeming features and believable reasons for how they came to be who they are. Again the show doesn't make the reasons as clear as the books do. Although I think the show does a good job of showing us how Cersei has come to be where she is. Tyrion's background is made pretty obvious too. Less so for Tywin and Jamie but hints are still there.
 
@ Ahnehnois

Well the books make it clear that Jaime truly loves his sister. I think there's hints of that in the show, but maybe not enough for someone who hasn't read the books to pick up on them. (I have no idea if you've read them or not, it's merely a general statement.) I agree that Jaime is pretty far gone as a human being. But this isn't to say he's beyond redemption. It just means he has a long way to go. A hell of a long way. Brienne might get him there.

I admit I hadn't thought about the connections between PTSD and rape. But I do see your point. And therefore I can see a case being made for Jamie's actions being right. (In terms of being true to his character development ONLY. Obviously not the moral implications which are horrible.) I remain to be convinced of this as yet; I shall have to wait until the drama plays itself out.

To be honest I don't think of any of the Lannisters as psychopaths. Bad people. Very, very bad people. But in all their cases there's some redeeming features and believable reasons for how they came to be who they are. Again the show doesn't make the reasons as clear as the books do. Although I think the show does a good job of showing us how Cersei has come to be where she is. Tyrion's background is made pretty obvious too. Less so for Tywin and Jamie but hints are still there.
There are very few truly psychotic characters in GoT. Most of the characters have both good and bad qualities. They vary in degree of good and bad, but I think that's what makes the characters interesting. Jaime, as vile as he is, has done some good things.

[video=youtube;JZ6fhp483YU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ6fhp483YU[/video]
 
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DrunkonDuty

Explorer
Yep, that's the appeal of Game of Thrones in a nutshell - the characters, good and bad, have layers and complexities.
 

Ahnehnois

Villager
Well the books make it clear that Jaime truly loves his sister. I think there's hints of that in the show, but maybe not enough for someone who hasn't read the books to pick up on them. (I have no idea if you've read them or not, it's merely a general statement.)
That may be true from the books; there are always changes in adaptations and it seems like this is an area where they may have subtly shifted things.

I agree that Jaime is pretty far gone as a human being. But this isn't to say he's beyond redemption. It just means he has a long way to go. A hell of a long way. Brienne might get him there.
I did get the sense that Brienne was supposed to be sort of his way out. But he didn't want it. He stuck with his sister, who besides being his sister is a horrible person. He still wants to be accepted by his father too. Those inextricable relationships seem like they'll be the end of him, as both of those people are using him to serve their own ends.

I admit I hadn't thought about the connections between PTSD and rape.
To me, the scene where he first gets back and sees Cersei and she rejects him brought up analogous real-world scenes that I've seen. He's a man who's waited a long time for that moment. He probably was imagining it the entire time he was chained up; it probably it what got him through his ordeal. He was banking on their reunion being the thing that healed all the pain. To me, there's been a simmering rage beneath his cool exterior ever since then.

To be honest I don't think of any of the Lannisters as psychopaths. Bad people. Very, very bad people. But in all their cases there's some redeeming features and believable reasons for how they came to be who they are.
As is the case with most psychopaths. Psychopathy is a personality trait; there are degrees. It also runs in families, and it seems to me that the message the show is sending is that Joffrey is what happens when you combine two people with antisocial tendencies: you get someone twice as bad.

Many of the worst people we think of being associated with that word went through childhood trauma. There's also increasing evidence that a degree of psychopathy is very useful in getting to the highest levels of the business world; we're not just talking about violent criminals. To me, the whole Lannister family exhibits various degrees of it (and, indeed, so do all the power players in King's Landing); and there are things that explain why but they don't negate that truth.

In Jaime's case it feels to me like his most moral act was killing the old Targaryen king. It's clear that he feels he did it not for selfish reasons to advance his own family, but because the king was a horrible person. To him, it was worth murdering someone and breaking his knight's oath for the greater good. But no one else saw it that way; even his own family doesn't seem to think much of him once he's done such a dishonorable thing. To me, the lesson he learned from that is that no good deed goes unpunished, and he feels very jaded and spiteful throughout the series.

I also suspect that he sees the parallels between the old king and the new one lying in front of him; and despite that king being his son I don't think he is as blindly in love with him as Cersei is. He's probably okay with Joffrey being dead and realizes that the king was a monstrous one, and the fact that Cersei seems to love her tyrant son more than either of her less evil brothers (as evidenced by asking one to kill the other over this) is probably eating him up inside. Jaime may have been the best of all of his family at one point, but I think the show has amply established what's rotting him inside.
 

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