Game of Thrones 5E Project - Knight Class (Spell-less Paladin)

[EditorBFG]

I haven't looked over it extensively but one thought jumps out already: you need more ways to spend conviction dice that intersect with the other two pillars, the same way spells provide a variety of possible uses outside combat.

mmm. Point well taken. I do think the class needs more in the way of social capabilities, since they have a very special and specific place in their society, but somehow it had not occurred to me to make conviction dice a way of implementing that. I will take a look at putting something like that in. Any suggestions? I think I have been too focused on emulating the regular paladin's combat performance.

 

[Minigiant]

Although a good class, it doesn't capture the knight of ASoIaF anymore than a fighter with the noble, knight, or soldier background.

Few of them have much conviction outside of self preservation and duty to their family name. Few were charismatic at all and many were the opposite of that word. Many were brutes with money.

I'd classify most ASoIaF knights and nobles as just fighters and many were just better than rabble due to about a decade of training and a full belly. Few were anything special at all outside of trained warriors.

As a class, this looks cool. However you need another healing mechanic. Paladins also used the spells for healing rarely. Also, exploration and interaction features are needed.

 

[Yaarel]

My goal with adapting a new class from the Paladin rather than just telling people to play fighters was partially to not constrain my players to a very low number of class actions because of my choice of setting. I still want there to be something in the space where the Paladin would be in a world with more spell casters. But also, I want to emulate the source material, which has a significant emphasis on knights being separated out as a special form of combatant.

Hmm. This approach sounds more like the 4e Warlord.

A Knight that uses Cha to inspire and Int for tactics, typifying noble fighting styles.

It seems like the ‘Knight’, Cavalier, Warlord, spell-less Paladin with healing abilities, and Noble could be aspects of the same class.

 

[MostlyDm]

Although a good class, it doesn't capture the knight of ASoIaF anymore than a fighter with the noble, knight, or soldier background.

Few of them have much conviction outside of self preservation and duty to their family name. Few were charismatic at all and many were the opposite of that word. Many were brutes with money.

I'd classify most ASoIaF knights and nobles as just fighters and many were just better than rabble due to about a decade of training and a full belly. Few were anything special at all outside of trained warriors.

As a class, this looks cool. However you need another healing mechanic. Paladins also used the spells for healing rarely. Also, exploration and interaction features are needed.

I think you're right, except... Classes don't need to be representative of the masses. The average knight in ASoIaF isn't even a *fighter*, really. He's just a generic d8 HD NPC with some basic armor and weapon proficiencies.

The question is whether or not this class could be useful to model some of the "PC" Knights. Brienne, Barristan, Arthur Dayne, etc. And while I still basically agree that it's not strictly *necessary* to do that, I think it could be interesting and useful for that purpose. There's a difference between Brienne and Sandor. That difference doesn't have to be expressed mechanically... It could be purely role playing and background. But I think you *can* express that difference mechanically, if that floats your boat.

Plus, if you're removing spell casting classes you've reduced the class options to Fighter and Rogue with 2 available archetypes each. So for mechanical variance between players, if that matters to you, you basically need to think up a couple new classes. Spell-less ranger and paladin seem like obvious first steps.

They'll be more similar than the base classes in the PHB. They'll look a lot like modified fighters and rogues, even. That's okay! Desired, even. That's the setting.

So yeah. Keep at it. I don't have any bright ideas for conviction-as-interaction/exploration. The lazy man's solution would be de-magickify some paladin spells that touch on those pillars and give 'em as class abilities.

 

[Minigiant]

I think you're right, except... Classes don't need to be representative of the masses. The average knight in ASoIaF isn't even a *fighter*, really. He's just a generic d8 HD NPC with some basic armor and weapon proficiencies.

I'd give them more credit than that. A noble who went through the whole squire process with a good knight and didn't fail at it would get some fighter levels. If you participated in a war and survived, a noble cold get to... level 5 fighter. More if you fought a lot.

The weakness in them is their starting scores. Even for elities, their stats would suck. Few knights had Str over 14 and few characters had positive Charisma modifiers at all. It was their levels form squiring and armor that isolated most normal nobles from common rabble.

Which brings the issue to eht PCs. In ASoIaF, personal Charisma doesn't help you in battle nor help you lead. Look at the Baratheons Brothers for proof. The smallfolk fight due to your family name, your personal/family wealth, or favorable odds. Nobles the same with more emphasis on the latters for some and the formers for others. So a Charisma based class just doesn't fit all that much except for a select few who can't be adventurers (Faith Militant and Kingsgaurd). In this world, they use strength, experience, toughness, and skill to fight. Charisma is for outside of combat.

 

[EditorBFG]

I'd give them more credit than that. A noble who went through the whole squire process with a good knight and didn't fail at it would get some fighter levels. If you participated in a war and survived, a noble cold get to... level 5 fighter. More if you fought a lot.

The weakness in them is their starting scores. Even for elities, their stats would suck. Few knights had Str over 14 and few characters had positive Charisma modifiers at all. It was their levels form squiring and armor that isolated most normal nobles from common rabble.

Which brings the issue to the PCs. In ASoIaF, personal Charisma doesn't help you in battle nor help you lead. Look at the Baratheons Brothers for proof. The smallfolk fight due to your family name, your personal/family wealth, or favorable odds. Nobles the same with more emphasis on the latters for some and the formers for others. So a Charisma based class just doesn't fit all that much except for a select few who can't be adventurers (Faith Militant and Kingsguard). In this world, they use strength, experience, toughness, and skill to fight. Charisma is for outside of combat.

I disagree. I will try to avoid real spoilers by being vague, assuming you've read the books. Speakng of the Baratheons, people fight for Renly at first because he has Charisma and Stannis doesn't. In order to correct this problem, Stannis has to use EXTREMELY extraordinary means. Personal Charisma is definitely a factor in the success of Jaime, the Knight of Flowers, Ser Barristan Selmy, Ser Arthur Dayne, etc.

Also, this class is no more Charisma-based than the paladin, on whom it is based. If I were making one, I would definitely want Strength to be my highest stat.

Maybe Conviction Dice is the wrong name. When I talk about the knight's conviction, it doesn't necessarily mean a code of honor or higher morale belief. It is just being convinced that you deserve to win and that you have the advantage over your opponents. You are more effective not just because you are formidable, but because your enemies believe you to be formidable-- this is why the knight's Smite version does psychic damage. You are a terrifying armored dreadnaught bearing down on opponents who mostly are not. When you fight another knight, it is a the stuff of stories, a clash of theoretical titans.

Each knight's Conviction is different. Early novels Jaime Lannister is driven to victory by loyalty to his family and absolute faith in his own superiority. Brienne of Tarth, more like a traditional paladin, believes in the rightness of her cause, and has the additional drive of proving herself in a world where women don't become knights. Jorah Mormont believes absolutely in his khaleesi, loving her but also thinking she offers something better for those she would rule. A Lannister knight in the later books is driven by his fanatical faith. Barristan Selmy and Loras Tyrell fight for honor, loyalty, and to embody the ideals of knighthood. Ser Gregor Clegane believes absolutely that might makes right, and that his extraordinary physical might will drive him to conquer anyone who opposes him. PC knights would be like these examples, not like run-of-the-mill knights. Conviction dice represent the qualities described above.

Obviously, I will need descriptive text describing all this.

 

[EditorBFG]

Based on input from others in this thread, I am adding the following Conviction Maneuvers to the class:
Lordly Reputation. When a character you can see or hear makes an Intelligence (History) check to know something of your reputation, glorious deeds, or family line, you can use your reaction and spend a conviction die to give them advantage on that roll. They also add the result of your conviction die roll to that check.
Noble Bearing. As a bonus action, choose a creature within 30 feet with whom you share a language, and roll your conviction die. For 10 minutes, you add the result of your conviction die roll to any ability checks you make to interact socially with that creature.
Recall Healer's Lore. As a bonus action, spend a conviction die. For one hour, you add the result of your conviction die roll to all Intelligence or Wisdom checks related to identifying or discerning the nature, presence, or location of poisons, poisonous creatures, and diseases within 100 feet, or to identifying or treating wounds or injuries of all kinds.
Ride Hard. When mounted and traveling with allies who are also mounted, you can help the group avoid exhaustion while traveling at a forced march or in other grueling conditions. As an action, expend a conviction die. For 24 hours, you and all mounted members of your party add the conviction die roll to Constitution saving throws against exhaustion.

What do you think?

 

[Connorsrpg]

If you want a knight that is not very chivalric - more a robust fighter-type, you may wish to have a look at our warmain: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?467846-Fighter-Archetype-Warmain

 

[EditorBFG]

So, does anybody have any more specific input on the class itself, as opposed to opinions on the whether or not it should exist in the first place? How well does this replace the Paladin in a world where paladins don't exist? Mechanically, is the classic balanced with other classes?

 

[MostlyDm]

Sadly I still don't have time to really dig as deep into this class as it deserves. But since nobody else is saying much:

I love the new powers. That's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I suggested expanding conviction into the other pillars.

The main thing I don't feel like I have a good opinion on is the fine tuning... Do the dice involved allow for any particularly over or under powered results that may not be intended? Haven't looked close enough to know, but that'd be my number 1 question if I was running this. E.g. Is adding a theoretical +10 (uncommon but by no means unreasonable on a d12 conviction) to social checks on a person for 10 minutes too much?

How does the math on conviction X4 compare to paladin smite? It's basically +4 in both cases but that's not totally accurate. Accurate enough for our purposes? At level one, 4d4 v 2d8 is slightly better.

I dunno. I think it looks good overall. Probably good enough for play testing.