GAME OF THRONES SEASON 8--Final Run-- Part 5

Gladius Legis

Explorer
1. Season finale of Dexter. (I'm a lumberjack!)

2. Season 8 of Dexter.

3. Actually, anything after season 4.

4. True Blood, final season.

5. Heroes; season finale (S1) and everything after.

6. Roseanne- winning the lottery, because that's what made the show good, you know, money.

7. X-Files- all those great episodes after Duchovny left.

8. Scrubs- did you know that they recast the whole thing for a season? Yeah, bet you didn't.

9. Earth: Final Conflict- S1 finale, everything after.*

10. How do you spell the Office without Michael Scott? S. U. C. K.

11. Weeds- somewhere around S4 or 5 maybe? It lasted eight (8!) increasingly bad seasons.

12. How I Met Your Mother- Never watched it, but I'm told I never should. Something about the last episode? ;)

13. Happy Days- have you ever heard of the phrase "Jumping the Shark?" Thought so.

14. Prison Break- What happens if you have a great concept, and you finish it, but you have to keep making episodes?

15. Grey's Anatomy- SPOILER! This show is still on. I know!


That's 15 quick ones. But if this is the most disappointed you've been in TV .... you've either live a charmed life, or enjoy the hyperbole.


*You can use this as a stand-in for countless Scifi and/or fantasy shows that have had a decent pilot or even season and then were absolutely destroyed by meddling.
Seen all of those. Last night's Game of Thrones was still worse. Except maybe Dexter, but it's at that level of stupid. And nothing any of you say will change that.
 

Raunalyn

Adventurer
The actual thing? Sure, there's hints it could happen.

The how and the why the thing happened? I doubt GRRM sets it up anywhere near as clumsily or stupidly.
It was her revenge for everyone freaking out about the damned Starbucks cup that was left on-screen last episode...
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Seen all of those. Last night's Game of Thrones was still worse. Except maybe Dexter, but it's at that level of stupid. And nothing any of you say will change that.
Well, given that you just stated that anyone that disagrees with you is "objectively" wrong, I think you're right - nothing anyone says will change your mind. ;)

Of course, anyone else will probably look at your assertions, quietly shake their heads, and turn away ... perhaps while remarking on the death of irony, or somesuch.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Gladius Legis

Explorer
Well, given that you just stated that anyone that disagrees with you is "objectively" wrong, I think you're right - nothing anyone says will change your mind. ;)

Of course, anyone else will probably look at your assertions, quietly shake their heads, and turn away ... perhaps while remarking on the death of irony, or somesuch.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This episode is below 50% on Rotten Tomatoes at the moment. I'm far from the only one who noticed this episode is awful. Apparently, however, this is the thread where all the Dumb & Dumber apologists decided to crawl out of the woodwork and attack me for speaking the cold hard truth.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
This episode is below 50% on Rotten Tomatoes at the moment. I'm far from the only one who noticed this episode is awful. Apparently, however, this is the thread where all the Dumb & Dumber apologists decided to crawl out of the woodwork and attack me for speaking the cold hard truth.
Hey- if you think this is the worst episode of TELEVISION ever (let alone that this is an OBJECTIVELY true statement), then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. Because you might not have liked it, but it's not even the worst episode of GoT, let alone the worst episode of television, ever. But then again, other people's opinions are like crying babies on an airplane- they are really annoying.

I mean, why didn't you just come in and say, "I'm here to chew bubblegum and throw a ridiculous nerd tantrum, and I'm all out of bubblegum."
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
The final season of Roseanne, when it was revealed that the last few seasons had been a dream/story Roseanne wrote, and that Dan had died of a heart attack.
Yep! Pretty much anytime this has been done, it sucks. See also, Dallas and Bobby Ewing (what a shower!).

Exception- the Newhart finale. That was the one (and ONLY) time the whole "it was all a dream" actually worked.
 

Derren

Adventurer
This episode shows what has been wrong with GoT ever since they couldn't copy from the books anymore. The quality of the writing is several leagues below what GRRM delivered and its basic hollywood garbage with a plot copied from tvtropes full of holes, bad characters and to distract from that overblown CGI action.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
Oooo, is this where we get to list off how much media we've consumed in an effort to see which of us is the superior nerd? Hard pass.


If you think it was that bad, for you, then fine by me. I will argue that objectively, there are worse.
Well I invented television! So there!

And my daddy can beat up your daddy!!!
 

MarkB

Hero
So, basically, at some point Dany snuck into the Iron Fleet and stole all their plot armour. Suddenly the Scorpions go from being turn-on-a-dime railguns that can snipe a dragon out of the air in three high-precision shots and rapid-fire their way through an entire fleet to cumbersome things that take ten seconds to aim at anything and 30 seconds to reload. Okay, this version is more realistic, but seriously, why didn't Dany just burn Euron's fleet to cinders last episode?

And then there followed around an hour of gratuitous dragonning, none of which I can bring myself to give a damn about. What fun is a battle without any good guys?
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
This episode shows what has been wrong with GoT ever since they couldn't copy from the books anymore. The quality of the writing is several leagues below what GRRM delivered and its basic hollywood garbage with a plot copied from tvtropes full of holes, bad characters and to distract from that overblown CGI action.
Well, I would say that the biggest issue is the bizarre and self-inflicted limitation of having two seasons with a combined 13 episodes to wrap up the story.

Look- the books as a blueprint were amazing for plot, but there was a LOT of heavy lifting in translating it to the screen- those scripts didn't write themselves. The writing, for the most part (as well as the acting) is still great; the issue is the plotting.

Simply put, I'd argue that when D&D (heh) decided that they'd end it in 13 episodes, despite HBO wanting more, they didn't give themselves enough room to breathe. That's been the biggest problem- too much plot, too little time, so a show that has previously focused on the payout from the long game now feels like it's rushing through unearned plot points (not to mention the discombobulation of the time the last two seasons; how long does it take things to happen, where are people in relation to each other, how much time is passing etc.).

It's still good, IMO, but I think it has lost an essential quality that people appreciated and that made it great.

(P.S. I will miss Eurotrash Greyjoy. He was a terrible character, but oh so much fun.)
 

Mallus

Hero
This episode is below 50% on Rotten Tomatoes at the moment. I'm far from the only one who noticed this episode is awful.
Some friendly advice: citing RT percentages is good way to sabotage any critical argument you're trying to make. I believe the name for the fallacy is "argumentum ad populum sui-selectum et neckbarbatum"

Apparently, however, this is the thread where all the Dumb & Dumber apologists decided to crawl out of the woodwork and attack me for speaking the cold hard truth.
Truth? What is truth? Sorry, feeling a bit Pilate-y today.

On the strength of the direction & cinematography alone "The Bells" deserves an Emmy. As the penultimate episode of Got... well, I'm not sure exactly how I feel about it today. While I was watching it my responses were: gripping, beautiful, awful, kinda... appropriate. It's amazing how the show can make its audience forget it's at the heart a subversion of epic fantasy. Again and again. And then provoke such a response when it flies its true colors.

I was surprised at how much I enjoyed CleganeBowl. I wasn't really invested in it. But the way they shot it, placing the emotional core of the fight prior to it happening -- ie Sandor convincing Arya to 'choose life' -- and then the combat itself as heroically beautiful futility was pretty bold and interesting.

I do wish the show-runners would have gone with one more season. They could have gotten to the same place by a more satisfying route.
 
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hawkeyefan

Explorer
So, basically, at some point Dany snuck into the Iron Fleet and stole all their plot armour. Suddenly the Scorpions go from being turn-on-a-dime railguns that can snipe a dragon out of the air in three high-precision shots and rapid-fire their way through an entire fleet to cumbersome things that take ten seconds to aim at anything and 30 seconds to reload. Okay, this version is more realistic, but seriously, why didn't Dany just burn Euron's fleet to cinders last episode?

And then there followed around an hour of gratuitous dragonning, none of which I can bring myself to give a damn about. What fun is a battle without any good guys?
I don't think that was portrayed perfectly....they likely could have established the situations more clearly. But I do think there's a difference between ships striking from hiding against an enemy that was unaware of them. The dragons were just floating along at that point. Then Rhaegon got hit, and thrashed a bit, and was vulnerable to more hits.

Dany sees him go down and begins to fly right at the boats, but realizes she's being hasty, and turns away.

Then, in last night's episode, she dives from the sun, ready for their attacks, moving quickly to minimize how useful the scorpions are, and unleashes the dragon's fire. The ships couldn't react fast enough, and that was it.

Again, probably could have been portrayed better, but I think it works.

If anything my criticism is how the dragonfire causes everything to explode! But I don't know if that contradicts what we've already seen.
 

Mallus

Hero
I think it’s reasonable to assume Dany went up in level right before last nights episode and she put all her skill points in Aerial Combat!
 

Istbor

Explorer
So, basically, at some point Dany snuck into the Iron Fleet and stole all their plot armour. Suddenly the Scorpions go from being turn-on-a-dime railguns that can snipe a dragon out of the air in three high-precision shots and rapid-fire their way through an entire fleet to cumbersome things that take ten seconds to aim at anything and 30 seconds to reload. Okay, this version is more realistic, but seriously, why didn't Dany just burn Euron's fleet to cinders last episode?

And then there followed around an hour of gratuitous dragonning, none of which I can bring myself to give a damn about. What fun is a battle without any good guys?
Yeah. I smirked at that as well. Suddenly the Scorpions behaved as you'd expect them to.

All in all though, I was pretty happy with the way the episode went. Made for some awesome Dragoning.
 

MarkB

Hero
I don't think that was portrayed perfectly....they likely could have established the situations more clearly. But I do think there's a difference between ships striking from hiding against an enemy that was unaware of them. The dragons were just floating along at that point. Then Rhaegon got hit, and thrashed a bit, and was vulnerable to more hits.

Dany sees him go down and begins to fly right at the boats, but realizes she's being hasty, and turns away.

Then, in last night's episode, she dives from the sun, ready for their attacks, moving quickly to minimize how useful the scorpions are, and unleashes the dragon's fire. The ships couldn't react fast enough, and that was it.

Again, probably could have been portrayed better, but I think it works.
Every single Scorpion crew in the bay and on the walls was ready and waiting for an attack. And while Dany was diving at any one cluster, the rest had all the time in the world to line up their shots. Barring one initial volley, the tactical situation for Dany was worse in this episode than the last one, because her targets weren't all clustered together. And yet this time she doesn't take a scratch.

If anything my criticism is how the dragonfire causes everything to explode! But I don't know if that contradicts what we've already seen.
We haven't really seen it unleashed full force against a structure before now - but it's certainly no more powerful than when the Night King blew up the Wall with an undead dragon. The only thing that got to me was the sheer volume. Apparently the dragons can breathe fire forever, more or less.
 

Manbearcat

Adventurer
Simply put, I'd argue that when D&D (heh) decided that they'd end it in 13 episodes, despite HBO wanting more, they didn't give themselves enough room to breathe. That's been the biggest problem- too much plot, too little time, so a show that has previously focused on the payout from the long game now feels like it's rushing through unearned plot points (not to mention the discombobulation of the time the last two seasons; how long does it take things to happen, where are people in relation to each other, how much time is passing etc.).
See, this is interesting to me (and one of the reasons I brought up gaming as a corollary or coincidental reference-point if you'd like).

I've enjoyed the ramped-up pacing. If there is one complaint I've had about Game of Thrones and other modern media (Avengers Endgame, The Last Jedi, and Black Panther come to mind), its a combination of pacing and (mostly related) poor cutting (including adjacent scenes that were tonally jarring or momentum damaging or overwhelmingly gratuitous setting/character tourism).

"Star Wars Was Saved in the Edit" is a good documentary for any fantasy-based media specifically (and plenty of other non-fantasy-based media).

Something like "There Will Be Blood" or "The Murder of the Outlaw Jesse James By the Coward Robert Ford" is a different animal. I suppose if people feel like Thrones is, or should be, closer to either of these than the inevitable Grim to High Fantasy drift inherent to its tropes...then, personally, the complaint would carry more weight with me.

I don't know where I'd put McCarthy's No Country For Old Men or The Road on that continuum. Given his brilliant, minimalist prose and the potency of every sentence, I feel it is an amazing combination of the heft and weight of the latter with the pacing and organization of the former. But Thrones is not that (and could never hope to achieve it because GRRM is more King than McCarthy).

Coming back full circle to my initial statement, my gaming preferences follows suit; economy of time and action with a ceaseless deluge of hard choices + an onslaught of conflict as it snowballs then crescendos into climax and denouement...no "wasted" motion.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
See, this is interesting to me (and one of the reasons I brought up gaming as a corollary or coincidental reference-point if you'd like).

I've enjoyed the ramped-up pacing. If there is one complaint I've had about Game of Thrones and other modern media (Avengers Endgame, The Last Jedi, and Black Panther come to mind), its a combination of pacing and (mostly related) poor cutting (including adjacent scenes that were tonally jarring or momentum damaging or overwhelmingly gratuitous setting/character tourism).

"Star Wars Was Saved in the Edit" is a good documentary for any fantasy-based media specifically (and plenty of other non-fantasy-based media).

Something like "There Will Be Blood" or "The Murder of the Outlaw Jesse James By the Coward Robert Ford" is a different animal. I suppose if people feel like Thrones is, or should be, closer to either of these than the inevitable Grim to High Fantasy drift inherent to its tropes...then, personally, the complaint would carry more weight with me.

I don't know where I'd put McCarthy's No Country For Old Men or The Road on that continuum. Given his brilliant, minimalist prose and the potency of every sentence, I feel it is an amazing combination of the heft and weight of the latter with the pacing and organization of the former. But Thrones is not that (and could never hope to achieve it because GRRM is more King than McCarthy).

Coming back full circle to my initial statement, my gaming preferences follows suit; economy of time and action with a ceaseless deluge of hard choices + an onslaught of conflict as it snowballs then crescendos into climax and denouement...no "wasted" motion.
So, here's where I would disagree with you.

Prior to the last two seasons, the strength of this show has been the intricate plotting and the characters; the growth of the characters and the developments in the plot have felt earned. Even something "shocking" (say, the Red Wedding or Ned Stark at the end of S1) is not shocking in terms of the character or the developments, but was only shocking in terms of the viewer expectations of what should happen in a show.*

It gave the show a very "real" feeling; something which is uncommon, but the idea that this was an inhabited world, with characters and machinations that exist not just on the screen, but beyond it. Much like a good chili, the flavor came because it was allowed to sit for a while before serving up more plot developments.

This is not similar (IMO) to most movies, which suffer from unneeded bloat; movies are closer to the short story, while a good television series (today) can be the full novel.

Anyway, the issue I have had is that while I believe that this most recent episode was, standing alone, quite good, and while some of the character beats made perfect sense (incl. Dany's heel turn), it happened too quickly. There wasn't the deep and satisfying emotional payout I should feel from the development of a plot point that was character driven, as opposed to plot point that are simply plot-driven.

IMO.


*Arguably, the missteps before the last two seasons occurred when a line of plot and characters was introduced and not given proper time, such as Dorne.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
In other news there is a youtube vid going around by actor Ian McElhinney (Ser Barristan Selmy) at a 2019 russian con where he states that GRRM finished books 6+7 but cut a deal to release them soon after season 8.
Ugh. On the one hand, why would he make that up? On the other, who told him that?

We've been burned far too many times by GRRM himself regarding book releases. I'm wary of believing anything about asoiaf until it happens. :hmm:


I was surprised at how much I enjoyed CleganeBowl. I wasn't really invested in it. But the way they shot it, placing the emotional core of the fight prior to it happening -- ie Sandor convincing Arya to 'choose life' -- and then the combat itself as heroically beautiful futility was pretty bold and interesting.
That was surprisingly good. Even after all the seasons, all the actor swaps for Gregor, and all the hype placed upon it.
 

variant

Villager
So it turns out that it just takes one dragon to win everything. Dany could have flown to Westeros at any time in the last few years with just one of her three dragons and burned Kings Landing to the ground, and anywhere else she wanted to.

All that political chess, all those armies, the Dothraki, the North, the Unsullied, none of it mattered in the end. Just one dragon beats everything. It’s a nuclear weapon.
The dragons had to grow up, but they've always been likened to weapons of mass destruction.
 

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