GAME OF THRONES SEASON 8--Final Run-- Part 5

Sadras

Explorer
The Inside the Episode segments are highly entertaining where the showruiners justify their blunders...
 

Sadras

Explorer
See, this is interesting to me (and one of the reasons I brought up gaming as a corollary or coincidental reference-point if you'd like).

I've enjoyed the ramped-up pacing.

/snip

Coming back full circle to my initial statement, my gaming preferences follows suit; economy of time and action with a ceaseless deluge of hard choices + an onslaught of conflict as it snowballs then crescendos into climax and denouement...no "wasted" motion.
Ramped up pacing with logical sense thrown in sure...but this was senseless.

I also disagree with @hawkeyefan with his (and I'm going to say it) apologist view of the scorpion use. Again this goes back to what feels 'more real'

For instance

Episode 4 scene
Instead of having Bronn complete the Tyrion sidestory (I will pay you double), they should have tasked him with assassinating the Dragon Queen after the NK debacle. In that moment Missandei dies saving Daenerys taking the deadly bolt. Then we would not have that unnecessary Euron/Missandei moment and her silly execution but the grief would still be real.

Revised Episode 5
Remove dragon getting killed by Euron, rather have the dragon wounded in the battle by one of the scorpions, as it crashlands alive in KL. It makes the scorpions seem useful/effective but not supermagical and doesn't have to nullify them from one episode to the next. Jon, who was riding said dragon falls into the water before the beast crashlands into the city.

The Bells Ring, but the scorpions on the walls have already taken aim at the wounded dragon writhing and lashing about in the city, they ignore the bells and fire to slay the beast. The death of her dragon after the sounding of the bells sends Daenerys over the edge (having lost Jorah, been betrayed by Varis who attempted to poison her, Jon's secret now out, lost another dragon needlessly and believing to have lost Jon too, maybe even Greyworm - see below), she begins the massacre – and in the process slays innocents. Feeling alone and Mad with Emotion. Daenerys needed many losses in a short space of time to make her lash out the way she did.
Unbeknownst to her Jon survives and watches in horror at the the devastation she wreaks.

Davos pulls back the Northmen and the Vale soldiers (where is their leader) but Greyworm/Unsullied and a handful of Dothraki push on butchering and continue the slaying. Also we do not need to mushroom these forces everytime there is fight - it is ok to use less extras!!!* They could have also given Greyworm a cool action scene with the Golden Company captain, Harry Strickland. Perhaps Greyworm dies. What a wasted opportunity not to use Strickland.

Arya finds and kills Ilyn Payne – the one who beheaded her father. Cleganebowl ensues – with Arya forced perhaps to push the Hound/the Mountain over the edge into the fire, at the Hound’s behest as he asks for her help, thereby crossing off another two names of her list, leaving only Cersei as the remaining name. We didn't need a repeat of The Mountain/Oberyn fight.

Euron and Yara meet – with Yara killing her uncle and taking back the Ironborn fleet. Better this than that farcical moment and death scene with Euron/Jaime. Honestly, what were they thinking? Or forget Yara and just have Euron burned at his scorpion up by Daenerys - no more than 10 seconds wasted on this joke of a character.

Meanwhile Arya pushes on, to be surprised by Qyburn and the kids (Varys’s ex-little birds). Unable/unwilling to slay children Arya is overwhelmed – enter Cersei. Soliloquy ensues with Cersei moving to kill a bound Arya. In the last moments, Jaime rescues Arya, having heard a damning confession from Cersei, enough for him to pierce through the blind love he had for her and so he fulfills the prophecy with him strangling her as the building around them begins to crumble. Arya makes her escape and in the fleeing moments sees Maester Qyburn fall victim to the fallen debris.


That would have been a better episode 5, IMO:
1) Jaime/Cersei arc complete, prophecy fulfilled;
2) Arya crosses all her names off her list – arc fulfilled;
3) Cleganebowl – Hound arc complete;
4) Makes use of Harry Strickland and the Golden Company better;
5) Greyworm gets to show off and be part of an action scene;
6) Euron character limited to allow for more use of time for better storyarcs;
7) Use of Davos and depicts Northmen/Vale not as savages/wildings;
8) Qyburn’s scorpions seem useful/effective in a realistic manner as opposed to superweapon before the fight then a big 0 on the actual day;
9) 1 less dragon = same as before.
10) 1 dragon not used in the entire destruction of everything and at least losses are suffered on Khaleesi's side (1 dragon);
11) Death of the dragon would probably be more emotional with more on-screen time - as it is slowly butchered by the Golden Company and the scorpions, unable to escape its plight.
12) Better justifies Khaleesi’s descent of going ‘mad’ - adds in the 'mad with grief' angle too

Thing we lose with this
1) Missandei’s start and end story-arc in chains, I found it poetic.
2) Bronn/Tyrion – I will pay you double side story.


* More on this. You want the viewer to see her forces diminish drastically to realise how isolated and unappreciated she feels - having lost 90% of her forces against the NK, so why do they keep mushrooming them in episodes thereafter. I mean the Long Night seems to have failed in all areas if they cannot reflect a much smaller army.
 
Last edited:

Imaculata

Adventurer
This episode was one giant character assassination. I know that they were trying to build up to Dany's madness, but they had not built it up to the point where killing thousands of innocent civillians feels like something she would do. This feels completely divorced from her character up to this point.

Also, apparently dragon fire behaves like a missile now, and has concussive force to blow apart stone buildings. According to the books, dragonfire can melt stone... but it is not explosive.
At this point I suspect George RR Martin gave the show runners some very basic outlines of how the story would end:

-Dany goes mad
-The Red Keep falls.
-Cersei and Jamie die in each other's arms
-The Hound and The Mountain fight, and the Hound dies by fire.
-Euron dies by Jamie's hands.

But it doesn't seem the details were fleshed out by him yet, and so he gave them the freedom to do whatever, thus explaining how clunky this all feels. It lacks the feeling that anything came full circle, or that gutpunch from earlier seasons, when they were still more or less following the books. There's a lot of plot points from the books that did not get a pay off at all, and I don't suspect they will with the final episode.

-No pay off to Sansa's dream about the Hound
-No pay off regarding the valonqar prophecy
-No pay off to The Hound's spiritual journey
-No pay off to the Ironborn and to Asha's (Yarra) storyline

By the way did Arya do anything useful at all this episode apart from running around a lot?
 
Last edited:

Kaodi

Adventurer
I saw a great thread on Twitter regarding why the show feels so different from the books. Basically the thesis was that GRRM writes books organically - asking what these characters would do in this situation and lets the plot evolve from there. Whereas these last few seasons the show has been entirely focused on the plot and the "events" they want to happen, rather than really being focused on the characters motivations. So the show ended up as something like a checklist, in contrast to how the books keep ballooning with more and more character detail.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Waiting for subverting expectations and Ghost getting the throne.

Predictability isn't to bad. Just watched Wonder Women and she defeats Ares. Blowing up Starkiller base kinda guessed it.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
One episode left. It's been a crazy ride. Whatever else I might think about how things have been going at least it's been entertaining.


What I would like to happen:
- Throne room. Dany orders Drogon to kill Tyrion for treason. Jon Snow does nothing.
- Tyrion reveals his real father was a Targaryen, Drogon refuses to act.
- Dany orders Grey Worm to kill Tyrion. Jon Snow does nothing.
- Grey Worm trips on his feet and falls into Drogon's mouth. Drogon chokes and bites down. Both die.
- Jon Snow removes his face. It's Littlefinger. Petyr kills Dany and sits on a partially melted Iron Throne.
- Sansa walks in and says "that worked out just like we planned". Petyr gives her the North.
- Arya comes in with Gendry, says they're retiring to the Stormlands. Their child will be called Sandor.
- King Baelish makes Tyrion hand of the king. Tyrion agrees on the condition that he gets to vacation at the Summer Isles first. He wants to go searching for someone.
- Brienne digs Jaime out of the rubble of the Red Keep. He's barely alive. She places Melisandre's necklace on him. They ride off into the sunset.
- Bronn is Lord of Highgarden. He looks really bored. He jumps on a horse and rides away.
- Sam and Gilly go home. They agree Little Sam will be a great lord one day.
- Davos sails west of Westeros with Salladhor Saan.
- Jon Snow goes north, finds Ghost and gives him a hug. They decide to walk as north as north goes. Tormund is with them. Up north they find the last village of the Children of the Forest. The Children tell them "it's not over".
- Bran comes seeking audience with King Baelish. Staring contest. The camera zooms in closer and closer. Only Bran's face is visible. Suddenly his eyes turn ice-blue. Bran smiles at the camera. He stands up, and starts walking towards Petyr. The ground beneath his feet turns to ice.
- Jaqen arrives at the gates of Storm's End. Knocks. Takes off his face. It's Syrio Forel. He laughs.
 

Raunalyn

Adventurer
Regardless of criticism, from the more literary-cinematic to the more fannish outrage at missed expectations and/or questionable elements of the story, GoT remains quite enjoyable in terms of pure entertainment. That last episode was wildly entertaining television.

That said, the episode was hard to watch: the sheer number of deaths, the wanton violence, the gratuitous gore (more so than most other episodes); and yes, the tragedy of seeing one of the main characters complete her transformation into villainy. But it worked - it was effective. I was wowed. But I ended it in a similar mental space as after watching something like Requiem for a Dream, thinking "that was quality cinema, but why do I need to see that? How does that in any way nourish me as a human being except as yet another reminder of how messed up things can get?"

So I'll add another element: What is it in us, culturally and individually, that so relishes this sort of "suffering porn?" I understand that story requires conflict, that story is conflict and overcoming it and that there's always suffering along the way, but GoT has upped to ante and relies quite a bit on suffering for its effectiveness. Its a bit cheap and speaks a lot to our cultural obsession with pathos.

But...can't wait for the series finale.
It was entertaining, yes. I have some serious criticisms about it, however. Mainly in the fact that the sudden transformation into madness for Danaerys wasn't believable for me. Yes, I know that she has been showing signs of this over the past few episodes, and my criticism is also tempered by the fact that the show-runners are actually limited on the number of episodes and time to show this plot development. The snap into a murderous rage for me just didn't click, though.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Even if Dany gets her just desserts next week it's a bit of a meh. She hasn't been bad long enough to care.
 
Last edited:

Raunalyn

Adventurer
I also had an issue with how Cersei "died." I think it would have been much more satisfying to have one more scene with Jaime and Cersei buried beneath the rubble together, and Jaime reaching over to choke Cersei to death so that she wouldn't have to suffer. It would have fulfilled the Valonquar prophecy, too.
 

Ralif Redhammer

Adventurer
As much as it would be awesome to see the last two books come out quickly once the series came out, I don’t think that’s likely. His last two books took, what 11 years to write, and he’s only gotten slower since then.

Besides, I doubt Bantam Books would be okay with this, considering how overdue The Winds of Winter is. Maybe if HBO dumped a giant pile of money in front of them…

I read an article today that the actor who played Ser Baristan Selmy said that Martin was finished with both book 6 and 7, but had a deal with HBO not to release them until after the series was over. I have no idea if that's true or not, but it's a very interesting thing for him to say.
 

Sadras

Explorer
Well he has publicly stated on his Not-A-Blog-Site that the rumour that he has finished book 6 and 7 is emphatically not true. In fact he states that he has not even begun book 7.
 

Gladius Legis

Explorer
It was entertaining, yes. I have some serious criticisms about it, however. Mainly in the fact that the sudden transformation into madness for Danaerys wasn't believable for me. Yes, I know that she has been showing signs of this over the past few episodes, and my criticism is also tempered by the fact that the show-runners are actually limited on the number of episodes and time to show this plot development. The snap into a murderous rage for me just didn't click, though.
Well, Dumb & Dumber brought that on themselves. HBO wanted Season 8 to have more episodes, but Dumb & Dumber refused.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
Ramped up pacing with logical sense thrown in sure...but this was senseless.

I also disagree with @hawkeyefan with his (and I'm going to say it) apologist view of the scorpion use. Again this goes back to what feels 'more real'
I said that the portrayal of the scorpion use could have been handled better. The angles could have been clearer or a line of dialogue could have been added to help clarify what was happening.

I simply don’t think that the lack of clarity is as egregious as many others. Nor do I think it’s something entirely new. Plenty of examples of it prior to the last couple of seasons.

And I agree that the pace of things is a bit rushed. I would have been happy for there to be a few more episodes in order to expand on things a bit. Make them feel more organic.

All that said, however, I’m just not going to let this minor stuff truly affect my view of the show. I would say that when things are a bit unclear, I tend to give a charitable view. Others prefer to do the opposite.

I’m also willing to let the creators tell the story they want to tell. I don’t get mad that they don’t follow the path I’ve thought up in my head.

In my opinion, a lot of the criticisms seem to come from that more than anything, or that they are enhanced because of that. “THIS ISN’T WHAT I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE, IT’S THEREFORE TERRIBLE!”

I have plenty of criticisms about the show. Always have. I just don’t let them do that weird fanboy heel turn thing where they make me hate something I’ve enjoyed for many years.
 

Sadras

Explorer
All that said, however, I’m just not going to let this minor stuff truly affect my view of the show.
I have to ask then, what would be major then, in your estimation? I'm curious where your line is drawn.

EDIT: Furthermore I think at this point (season 8) some of us have been more than a little charitable, especially given the last few seasons. It isn't just one episode or one season that has been a clustercluck so forgive me if I don't share the lets poo-poo on the fanboys for their attitudes.
For me it is about common sense and consistency (in character and other). That has been sorely lacking for a while. The chorus is getting louder these days. :)
 
Last edited:

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Well he has publicly stated on his Not-A-Blog-Site that the rumour that he has finished book 6 and 7 is emphatically not true. In fact he states that he has not even begun book 7.
Pretty sure that is a typo.

GRRM meant to say, "I have not even begun book 6."

Then he starting uncontrollably sobbing, and screaming, "WHERE ARE THE PAGES? WHY, GOD, WHY?"
 

Ralif Redhammer

Adventurer
This. It's possible to enjoy something and still be critical of it. There are parts of Game of Thrones that I think could be done better, but I still love the show.

Hatewatching only feeds fandom toxicity.

I have plenty of criticisms about the show. Always have. I just don’t let them do that weird fanboy heel turn thing where they make me hate something I’ve enjoyed for many years.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
I have to ask then, what would be major then, in your estimation? I'm curious where your line is drawn.
I'm not sure, really. I'd have to see it to know it. But I think it would be something that was very concretely contradictory rather than just poorly presented. To use the Scorpion example....I can believe that the Iron Fleet could hit a flying dragon who was not expecting their attack, and I can believe that Dany and Drogon could effectively attack and defeat the Iron Fleet despite their Scorpions. The conditions are different in the two events, so I don't see them as contradictory. I don't think the first was portrayed very well, but I don't think that a matter of presentation is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

To use another example....I would have gone (and expected them to go) in a very different route with regard to Jaime. I think in the books, it's very likely that Jaime will help the Hound defeat the Mountain (pretty sure Dany has a vision of this in the House of the Undying; something about "a golden knight and a hound fighting a giant knight with armor made of stone", paraphrasing, but that's the gist) and then he'll go on to actually kill Cersei (fulfilling the prophecy of the little brother). He'll be faced with a similar choice as to the one he faced with the Mad King, and he'll make the same choice, because he knows it's right. That's the arc I wanted for him, and the one I think he's on in the books (if Stoneheart can somehow let go of her hate, I suppose.....maybe someday we'll find out).

However, the show went a different route. Jaime remains faithful to Cersei despite the influence of Brienne. He simply cannot move past the horrible things he's done, and so he thinks he belongs with Cersei rather than a worthy person like Brienne. Then he has his chat with Tyrion, and he essentially sets out to try and save Cersei in order to redeem her. I think he genuinely wanted to simply escape with her and live their life with the baby quietly for the rest of their days. Obviously, it wasn't to be so.

This is a different route than I would have taken, but I don't think it's at all inconsistent with what we've seen in the show. Book Jaime has a much more definitive falling out with Cersei that Show Jaime never has. I don't have a problem with the show's interpretation of this simply because it doesn't match my expectations.

EDIT: Furthermore I think at this point (season 8) some of us have been more than a little charitable, especially given the last few seasons. It isn't just one episode or one season that has been a clustercluck so forgive me if I don't share the lets poo-poo on the fanboys for their attitudes.
For me it is about common sense and consistency (in character and other). That has been sorely lacking for a while. The chorus is getting louder these days. :)
That's fine. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. I expect I even share some of your opinions about the show. But may I ask, if the show has let you down so much, why do you still watch?

I try to temper my expectations with the realities of production of a show on this scale, and with trying to complete the story in the amount of episodes that remain. I'd have preferred a few more episodes so that things don't feel so rushed, but that was not to be. We can guess as to why, but likely our guesses will fall far short of the complexity that goes into a film production of this scope. "Just make more episodes" is a pretty easy thing to demand, and quite another to actually produce.

I do think that there's a strange phenomenon that happens with fans sometimes where they create expectations that will simply never be reached. And then very often what happens is that valid criticism ("the pacing of later seasons seems a bit too fast") is replaced by insult ("Dumb & Dumber have brought this on themselves"). You can see it in this thread, and you can see much more of it elsewhere online.
 

Tonguez

Adventurer
it was better than last weeks shocker, the battle made sense, was big and bloody and it was day time so I could see stuff.

Dany has always had a draconian streak but her descent to madness could have perhaps been better explored. However the dragon going nuclear after being so useless last episode was disappointing and other than psychosis it made no sense burning the town rather than flying straight to the Red Keep and completely destroying it and everyone inside - including all the innocents held there.

Also tending to believe now that Arya is Azor Ahai and will kill a fiery dragon
 
Last edited:

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
[video=youtube;CpTZ-tC81yA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTZ-tC81yA[/video]


Edit: meant to post this in the What Are You Listening To? thread. They released it two days ago. :D
 
Last edited:

Advertisement

Top