GAME OF THRONES SEASON 8--Final Run-- Part 5

Imaculata

Adventurer
The series still suck because it was rushed, and this is why people will take no lesson from Dany's murderous rage (it is what dictators do, so stop cheering for them). But there is a lesson here. Murderous is not the solution. Stop asking and cheering for it.
If there is anything to be learned here, it is how important George RR Martin's writing was to the success of the show... without that backbone, the show stumbles towards the finish line in a hurry.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
If Batman actually ended the Joker the 2nd, 3rd, xth time he caught him, one might see a significant decrease in victims every time the super-villain escapes from the asylum. Not buying this 'let live' crap.

I'm pretty sure everyone was satisfied with the killing of Ramsay and Joffrey.
I liked having Jeffrey around and loved to hate him. Ramsay was just cartoon evil, and what he did to Sansa wasn't in the books and wasn't needed, didn't do anything to advance the plot etc. Joffrey and Tywin being killed was around where the show started heading down hill imho.

What made Jeffrey great was probably his age.
 

Sadras

Explorer
I liked having Jeffrey around and loved to hate him. Ramsay was just cartoon evil, and what he did to Sansa wasn't in the books and wasn't needed, didn't do anything to advance the plot etc. Joffrey and Tywin being killed was around where the show started heading down hill imho.

What made Jeffrey great was probably his age.
You're discussing something else entirely.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Maybe I liked having Joffrey around and missed him. He was a better villain than his replacements Ramsey and Euron in the secondary villain role.
 
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Imaculata

Adventurer
I liked having Joffrey around and loved to hate him. Ramsay was just cartoon evil, and what he did to Sansa wasn't in the books and wasn't needed, didn't do anything to advance the plot etc. Joffrey and Tywin being killed was around where the show started heading down hill imho.

What made Joffrey great was probably his age.
Ramsay's book counter part is every bit as evil as the one on the show. But some of his acts were switched from a character not featured on the show, to one that is; Sansa.
The show indeed struggles a lot around season 5. The book on which it is based, Feast for Crows, struggles about just as much (although they also throw in some Dance with Dragons). There's a lot of aimless floundering about in Dorne with new characters that no one really cares about, and the main cast is mostly abscent. And the ironborne aren't very interesting either, though I feel the show did both a disservice.
 

Tonguez

Adventurer
I do not understand this line of argument which gets repeated in this and other threads.
Just because a supernatural creature exists in the story doesn't mean the rest of reality/believability within the show needs to become unhinged.
When I saw the scorpions used by Euron to slay the dragon I was reminded of video games like Spartan Total War where they are essentially reskinned Modern Ackacks, so my brain switched in to video game logic for the episode. So although a departure from how the show has previously presented, it is no less plausible than the idea of a woman riding a dragon being able to dodge those same ballista bolts.
Fantasy worlds do need their own internal consistency but plausibility needs to be given a very long leash
 

Kramodlog

Adventurer
I'm pretty sure everyone was satisfied with the killing of Ramsay and Joffrey.
Satisfying has nothing to do with morality. People cheering for immoral behavior open the door to what Dany did. Mass murder. That is the true face of a despote who thinks they have sovereignty over people's lives. As long as people cheer immoral behavior and despote, immoral behavior will continue and despote will rule. They shouldn't be surprised.

Of course, no person will be learn by the masses today. Your cheering at murder is a testament to that.
 

Kramodlog

Adventurer
If there is anything to be learned here, it is how important George RR Martin's writing was to the success of the show... without that backbone, the show stumbles towards the finish line in a hurry.
Dany will still be a murderous despote on the books.
 

Imaculata

Adventurer
When I saw the scorpions used by Euron to slay the dragon I was reminded of video games like Spartan Total War where they are essentially reskinned Modern Ackacks, so my brain switched in to video game logic for the episode. So although a departure from how the show has previously presented, it is no less plausible than the idea of a woman riding a dragon being able to dodge those same ballista bolts.
Fantasy worlds do need their own internal consistency but plausibility needs to be given a very long leash
They also need to be consistent. We have been shown how accurate or inaccurate the Scorpion is three or four times in the show (one of which was the episode before). And it is always as accurate as the plot requires at that time, which means not consistent at all.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Ramsay's book counter part is every bit as evil as the one on the show. But some of his acts were switched from a character not featured on the show, to one that is; Sansa.
The show indeed struggles a lot around season 5. The book on which it is based, Feast for Crows, struggles about just as much (although they also throw in some Dance with Dragons). There's a lot of aimless floundering about in Dorne with new characters that no one really cares about, and the main cast is mostly abscent. And the ironborne aren't very interesting either, though I feel the show did both a disservice.
I have read the books although it has been a while.
 

Sadras

Explorer
Satisfying has nothing to do with morality. People cheering for immoral behavior open the door to what Dany did. Mass murder. That is the true face of a despote who thinks they have sovereignty over people's lives. As long as people cheer immoral behavior and despote, immoral behavior will continue and despote will rule. They shouldn't be surprised.

Of course, no person will be learn by the masses today. Your cheering at murder is a testament to that.
To be clear, I'm not condoning mass murder, but neither am I supporting your stance that all killing is bad or immoral.
 

Sadras

Explorer
When I saw the scorpions used by Euron to slay the dragon I was reminded of video games like Spartan Total War where they are essentially reskinned Modern Ackacks, so my brain switched in to video game logic for the episode. So although a departure from how the show has previously presented, it is no less plausible than the idea of a woman riding a dragon being able to dodge those same ballista bolts.
Fantasy worlds do need their own internal consistency but plausibility needs to be given a very long leash
I guess the length of the leash is where disagreement occurs. For me a departure of what has previously been presented causes the biggest issue.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
When I saw the scorpions used by Euron to slay the dragon I was reminded of video games like Spartan Total War where they are essentially reskinned Modern Ackacks, so my brain switched in to video game logic for the episode. So although a departure from how the show has previously presented, it is no less plausible than the idea of a woman riding a dragon being able to dodge those same ballista bolts.
Fantasy worlds do need their own internal consistency but plausibility needs to be given a very long leash
It doesn't need that long of a leash, and if you have to go into video game mode to watch a T.V. show, that show has failed. It's not a video game.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Satisfying has nothing to do with morality. People cheering for immoral behavior open the door to what Dany did. Mass murder. That is the true face of a despote who thinks they have sovereignty over people's lives. As long as people cheer immoral behavior and despote, immoral behavior will continue and despote will rule. They shouldn't be surprised.

Of course, no person will be learn by the masses today. Your cheering at murder is a testament to that.
I don't remember the people cheering at immoral behavior. I do remember them cheering at the punishment of immoral behavior, though. They cheered when the traitor Ned Stark was beheaded. It wasn't their fault they were lied to about what he did. They believed he was immoral and cheered appropriately. They also cheered when the immoral Queen Cersei walked the walk of shame, also punishment of immoral behavior.

What immoral behavior did they cheer?
 

Sadras

Explorer
I'm not sure, really. I'd have to see it to know it. But I think it would be something that was very concretely contradictory rather than just poorly presented.
Even this (bolded section) can be subjective - one can but refer to the plethora of online arguments regarding the Dragon Queen and her descent into Madness.

That's fine. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. I expect I even share some of your opinions about the show. But may I ask, if the show has let you down so much, why do you still watch?
This might help explain why I still watch it. Particularly the quote from Jester David.

I try to temper my expectations with the realities of production of a show on this scale, and with trying to complete the story in the amount of episodes that remain. I'd have preferred a few more episodes so that things don't feel so rushed, but that was not to be. We can guess as to why, but likely our guesses will fall far short of the complexity that goes into a film production of this scope. "Just make more episodes" is a pretty easy thing to demand, and quite another to actually produce.
Well they could have reduced or altogether eliminated Euron/Cersei, Arya stumbling around KL, Euron/Jaime, Tyrion/Varis cock jokes and a few other scenes to actually assist with the main storyline...

I do think that there's a strange phenomenon that happens with fans sometimes where they create expectations that will simply never be reached. And then very often what happens is that valid criticism ("the pacing of later seasons seems a bit too fast") is replaced by insult ("Dumb & Dumber have brought this on themselves"). You can see it in this thread, and you can see much more of it elsewhere online.
Hmmm doesn't that happen everywhere (i.e. politics comes to mind) and why can you not have both - valid criticism with insult.
 
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lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
To be clear, I'm not condoning mass murder, but neither am I supporting your stance that all killing is bad or immoral.
I mean, say what you want about tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.


(Is this really a necessary disclaimer? ;) )
 

Kramodlog

Adventurer
I don't remember the people cheering at immoral behavior. I do remember them cheering at the punishment of immoral behavior, though. They cheered when the traitor Ned Stark was beheaded. It wasn't their fault they were lied to about what he did. They believed he was immoral and cheered appropriately. They also cheered when the immoral Queen Cersei walked the walk of shame, also punishment of immoral behavior.

What immoral behavior did they cheer?
I'm talking about the audience of the show. They cheered when Dany killed people. They cheered mass murder and torture by a despote. It should be a lesson. Despotes are poopie. We should condamn them. The same people who cheered when Dany commited mass murder on Essos are now shocked she commits mass murder on Westeros. Shame on them for their double standards and their support of murderous despotes. I hope they learn something.

We should stop cheering at characters who serve murder as a form of justice. Murderers are bad people.
 

Kramodlog

Adventurer
To be clear, I'm not condoning mass murder, but neither am I supporting your stance that all killing is bad or immoral.
I'm sure you do not find murder and killing to be immoral. This is how we get wars, terrorism, torture, police abuse, etc. People find human death and suffering acceptable when its not them who are affected by it.
 

Imaculata

Adventurer
Dany will still be a murderous despot in the books.
Oh, almost guaranteed. But I think George RR Martin will make the transition a bit more smooth, character motivated and logical, instead of the abrupt character assassination that we got this season... that is, if he ever finishes Winds of Winter and then some more books... which seems unlikely.

It's not Dany's turn that I have a problem with. It is how it is presented in the show, which made little sense. Though I think this is an issue that could have easily been remedied in the editing room (just like Euron's magical fleet appearing out of nowhere).
 

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