Game of Thrones: spoilers discussion.

[Steel_Wind]

Don’t see what he did wrong?

Let’s change these three things:

1) Send Loras Tyrell instead of Lord Beric after The Mountain (and kept his own household guard in KL): Had Eddard thought like the ruler of a realm at war, instead of as some policeman, he would have sent Loras Tyrell with a contingent of Tyrell and Goldcloaks after The Mountain. Had Loras defeated the Mountain, so much the better. Had he lost his life to him, The Tyrells would have been the sworn enemies of the Lannisters and the war would have been over before it had begun. His honour weighed him down. Big Mistake #1

2) Telling Cersei: By offering Cersei an “honourable” withdraw to Pentos so save her life and those of her children, Eddard paid with his own life and plunged the realm into civil war. Big Mistake #2. His honour cost him his life as well as that of his son and wife and tens of thousands of citizens of Westeros.

3) Refusing Renly: Eddard should have struck and seized Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella in the dead of night when the offer of Renly’s swords was made and Littlefinger’s duplicity had not yet been realized. Had he done so, war would have been averted and he would have held the upper hand with hostages to secure the good behaviour or the Lannisters. He was a fool and refused. Big Mistake #3.

Reverse those three choices and war would have been averted and the Lannisters crushed. He didn’t make those choices because he was selfish when it came to matters of "personal honour". You win or you die. He lost. He died.

 

[Cor Azer]

There's also the fact that flat out told Cersei to her face that he planned to depose her and her son. Yeah, real genius that.

Not to mention that he planned for Stannis Baratheon to sit on the Iron Throne after Robert's death, despite Littlefinger's advice that this was a bad idea. Is it any wonder why Littlefinger betrayed him?

I have to agree with Steel Wind. Ned Stark was an idiot and his rigid code of honor brought more harm than good to the Seven Kingdoms.

Certainly, Ned was nowhere near the political player the others were, but I still don't think it was his honor that brought him down. Renly's offer was of 300 swords, and possibly the Tyrells many miles away. The Lannisters had far more swords in King's Landing, and the loyalty of the Gold Cloaks was uncertain.

Stannis may not have been the best choice according to Littlefinger, but really, what other choice was there? The coup to rid the realm of the Lannisters could only succeed if it also revealed the incest of Cersei and Jaime, otherwise there is a rallying point for the Lannisters. And for the kingdom to remain stable, the "face" of the coup/rebellion needed some sort of claim to the throne - Robert had some Targ blood, that's why he got the throne instead of Ned or Jon Arryn originally. The only claimants left were Renly and Stannis, and Stannis' claim was far stronger.

I concede that telling Cersei his plans was stupid, and yes, probably only done so his honor wouldn't be stained with "rebellion", but I don't think not telling Cersei would have helped, not only because of Sansa's snitching, but also because everyone else had better informants than Ned.

 

[horacethegrey]

Stannis may not have been the best choice according to Littlefinger, but really, what other choice was there? The coup to rid the realm of the Lannisters could only succeed if it also revealed the incest of Cersei and Jaime, otherwise there is a rallying point for the Lannisters. And for the kingdom to remain stable, the "face" of the coup/rebellion needed some sort of claim to the throne - Robert had some Targ blood, that's why he got the throne instead of Ned or Jon Arryn originally. The only claimants left were Renly and Stannis, and Stannis' claim was far stronger.

Stannis is a hardliner who would have beheaded many people had he assumed the throne. Many of these people were those who fought under the dragon's banner during Robert's Rebellion. But Robert chose to spare their lives in exchange for fealty, whereas Stannis would put their heads on spikes right away, including Cersei and her children. Tywin Lannister of course wouldn't stand by, and he'd raise his whole army alongside those who don't wish to see Stannis on the throne.

Littlefinger mentioned all of this to Ned. But did he listen? Noooo. All Ned Stark could see was that one man's claim to the throne was legit, even if it meant war.

 

[Remus Lupin]

I don't think Ned was worried about the dishonor caused by participation in the rebellion (he'd done that once already after all), but rather he was concerned about the inevitable murder of the children. He gave Cersei the option of fleeing with the children, not for her sake, but for theirs, because he remembered the fate of the Targaryan children in Robert's rebellion. His downfall in this sense wasn't honor, but compassion.

That said, I agree with much of the rest of the analysis of Ned's follies.

 

[Cor Azer]

Don’t see what he did wrong?

Let’s change these three things:

1) Send Loras Tyrell instead of Lord Beric after The Mountain (and kept his own household guard in KL): Had Eddard thought like the ruler of a realm at war, instead of as some policeman, he would have sent Loras Tyrell with a contingent of Tyrell and Goldcloaks after The Mountain. Had Loras defeated the Mountain, so much the better. Had he lost his life to him, The Tyrells would have been the sworn enemies of the Lannisters and the war would have been over before it had begun. His honour weighed him down. Big Mistake #1

2) Telling Cersei: By offering Cersei an “honourable” withdraw to Pentos so save her life and those of her children, Eddard paid with his own life and plunged the realm into civil war. Big Mistake #2. His honour cost him his life as well as that of his son and wife and tens of thousands of citizens of Westeros.

3) Refusing Renly: Eddard should have struck and seized Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella in the dead of night when the offer of Renly’s swords was made and Littlefinger’s duplicity had not yet been realized. Had he done so, war would have been averted and he would have held the upper hand with hostages to secure the good behaviour or the Lannisters. He was a fool and refused. Big Mistake #3.

Reverse those three choices and war would have been averted and the Lannisters crushed. He didn’t make those choices because he was selfish when it came to matters of "personal honour". You win or you die. He lost. He died.

I agree that Ned lost and died to political stupidity, but I'm not entirely sure it was due to his honor.

I already addressed the offer to Cersei, but for your other two points:

1. He needed to send swords he could trust after the Mountain, not some hot-headed knight who might make the situation worse. Yes, the situation got worse (much worse), but I don't think Ned's honor was what caused him to bypass Ser Loras for Lord Beric.

2. Under what pretense could the Ned and Renly coup knock out the Lannisters while keeping and controlling Joffrey? In order to say "the Lannisters did wrong", they pretty much need to say Joff and siblings are the result of incest. At that point, they're not much value as hostages. Maybe to Cersei, but Jaime barely thinks of them until book 4, and Tywin would easily dismiss them as nigh worthless to ransom. No leverage means little to stop the Lannister armies which are larger and closer than the North. The Tyrells may or may not join in on either side (a Margaery/Robb pairing could have brought them over, or a Willas or Loras/Sansa, particularly with bastard Joff causing the Lannisters to have no good pairings. The Vale would back Ned or not; depending on how Littlefinger manipulated Lysa, the Martells would stay out of it, the Riverlands are ill-defended, Balon is already anti-Ned on Pyke, which leaves the Stormlands, which would be having their own little Stannis/Renly spat. While your situation is possible, I think it's far from certain that a Renly/Ned coup results in stopping the war before it begins.

 

[Steel_Wind]

1. He needed to send swords he could trust after the Mountain, not some hot-headed knight who might make the situation worse. Yes, the situation got worse (much worse), but I don't think Ned's honor was what caused him to bypass Ser Loras for Lord Beric.

Nonsense. Now you are talking like Eddard. Tywin was either in open rebellion against the Crown, or The Mountain acted on his own and was a bandit. There was no "making matters worse". By definition, it couldn't GET worse. What it could get, was BETTER. Better was allowing Loras Tyrell to go off and either kill the Mountain or be killed. Either way, the Throne would win.

It's that simple. Sending Loras was a win-win scenario. Eddard was a fool who thought preventing further open hostitilites was a thing to be avoided, rather than embraced.

2. Under what pretense could the Ned and Renly coup knock out the Lannisters while keeping and controlling Joffrey?

Eddard was the Lawful Regent of the Realm and the Lord Protector of the Seven Kingdoms. He didn't have to justify his actions to anybody. As long as he held the "Baratheon children" as his wards and Cersei as his "Honoured guest", Tywin was screwed. If Tywin moved openly against the Crown, he could threaten to put Cersei on trial for incest (and do it if Tywin didn't actually back down).

If Tywin was cowed (and he would have been), it would permit Eddard time to get Stannis' forces in place near KL and call the Banners in the North and the Riverlands while the South mobilized.

What seizing the Baratheons as Regent provided to Eddard was TIME. As for more Lannister forces being in KL -- yes and no. As long as Eddard held the Baratheons in Magor's with a couple of hundred men, they could hold out for as long as it took for the Banners of the South to reach KL (Storms End and the Tyrells) and for Stannis to arrive. Stannis by sea is much faster than Tywin on foot.

And at this time, Eddard also belived that Catelyn held Tyrion and that the Eyrie would have been loyal to the Thonre (and in truth, it probably would have been, too).

That left Jamie, who was an outlaw for his attack on Eddard as the only free Lannister after Tywin. Very good odds. Kill either one of Jaime or Tywin, and by holding Tyrion and Cersei, Eddard had the heirs to Casterly Rock in his control. It was smooth sailing.

Under those circumstances, Tywin would bend the knee as long as he could be allowed a way to save face. The peace would be preserved and the Regency would have ushered in an era of peace and prosperity, just in time for Winter.

All Ned had to do was play a waiting game. The fact that Renly would move against the Laninsters -- along with Loras off killing or better still, *getting killed by* The Mountain -- this assured Eddard victory. The Lannisters would thereby be marginalized and without allies. Eddard had the North, the Riverlands, the Tyrells, and Renly at his side -- and Stannis would eventually come on board and be King. Or if that would prove unpalatable and lead to civil war, then Stannis could have an "accident" in the best interests of the realm.

Renly would have made an excellent King. And probably would have allowed Eddard to go back home with his family. Marry Sansa to Renly, Robb to Margaery, it's all good. At that point, (assuming Stannis had an accident) he could have even had found a bride for Brandon. It's not as if anyone was queueing up to marry Shireen. Bran and Shireen could have worked too.

And if for some reason Renly didn't want to be King? Well, Eddard had Jon Snow in his pocket. Options galore.

The only other great houses were the Martells - who would not side with the Lannisers come what may after Ilya, and the Greyjoys. Balon's heir was held by Eddard and the Redwine fleet along with the King's ships on the Blackwater and Stannis' fleet were essentially in Eddard's control. Greyjoy would not dare let a ship sail in league with the Lannisters or the Iron Isles would be crushed...AGAIN.

That Ned did not stop to consider these things, let alone evaluate and then discount them as options, was pretty much just his honour getting in the way of Peace, Order and Good Government.

 

[Remus Lupin]

Man Steelwind, you've clearly thought all of this through very well. If only Ned had had access to the first four volumes of ASoIaF, he might have made exactly the same moves.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Ned Stark, Lawful to the end.

 

[invokethehojo]

For me, I've never read the books due to lack of funds, However, I am a huge fan of the setting (I own the SoIaF RPG).

My comparison is having read the book "Band of Brothers" and then watching the series several times (I own it).

Sorry to kvetch here but I'm trying to understand how you own the RPG (which costs about $30 I would guess) and the DVD's of Band of Brothers (mine cost at least $60) but you can't afford four $7 books?

 

[Digital M@]

Maybe you are clouding the issue and it is more black and white than it appears. Without the evil and selfish acts of the first party, the sacrafice of the second would not have occured. But I do agree, that is if you excuse the evil as a normal act then Ned's visions and actions are short sighted. He just needed to plan more before opening his mouth. He was too trusting, and did not understand the depths and complexity of the nature of the people he dealt with.

In the end there is no justification of Jaime's deeds. It is not untill his injury and the thrill of battle is taken from him that he reconsiders his place in the world. Martin does an excellent job of crafting compassion for Jaime, and compassion is always good

I’d go one step further: by killing Aerys (and Aerys' Hand), Jaime sacrifices his personal honour to save the people of Kings Landing. Yet, none of them respect him for it and the Right Honourable Eddard Stark, in fact, reviles him for it. Yet Jaime’s self-sacrifice of his own honour to become the Kingslayer was, in fact, the ethical thing to do and Eddard’s dogmatic approach to honour as an almost unswerving absolute is, in fact, the selfish and immoral choice.

Moreover, the series demonstrates that Eddard’s so-called honour brings utter ruin upon his family, his realm and his smallfolk. Instead of Eddard making the necessary sacrifices of his own personal honour for the greater good, Eddard makes the whole realm bleed to “save” his own honour.

So who is the more selfish? Who is the more virtuous? Jaime or Eddard? I put it to you that answer is not at all clear. The ethical calculus that Eddard subscribes to looks only at the immediate results of right and wrong, true or false, black and white -- all without probing further. It is a philosophy which both Eddard and Robb conveniently and abruptly terminate before any real introspection or contemplation of the true consequences that their selfish "honourable" choices will have upon the realm, their families and their people.

That’s why Eddard and Robb Stark lose the Game of Thrones. Not because they are moral, but because they are not. They are very "decent" men, but their approach to statecraft is personal, naive, immature and therefore, ultimately, selfish.

Sorry. It’s not as cut and dried as you might prefer it to be. GRRM does not let the reader off that easy. His tale is deliberately gray; a story where a dishonourable choice may lead to the greater good – and an honourable choice to a far greater evil.

It is this duality, an examination of both motives and results; and a steadfast refusal to let characters of the hook for the real consequences of their choices which makes Song of Ice and Fire the best work of so-called fantasy ever written.