Games with "terrible" follow-up editions

aramis erak

Legend
Well considering that they outright stole House Tremere and the Order of Hermes for the World of Darkness, I guess it was inevitable that when they got the license, things would be retconned.
Those were not stolen - those were part of Reinđźž„Hagen's setting from the start.
Lion Rampant was Reinđźž„Hagen; he then took his vampire game to WWG... and included the Tremere post-accident.

Mage was built upon AM 1 being crossed into WWG StoryTeller mechanics.

People often don't realize they both originate from M. Reinđźž„Hagen.
(and yes, the dot is a prentious bit of his... but I'll put it in because it's how he presents himself to the gaming public.)
 

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aramis erak

Legend
I know DQ still has a loyal fanbase online. I wonder if a retroclone version of the rules system would be possible.
Any game, within the US context, can be cloned, excluding those with patentable physical component processes. US Copyright does not protect game mechanics, only the precise wording of them. And that even only when the exact wording is not the only way to describe the mechanic.

The open licenses aren't even needed...
that said, big companies can afford to bury a cloner in legal paperwork....
 

aramis erak

Legend
I must be misremembering things, I could have sworn one of my early White Wolf books had an announcement that they had just got the rights to Ars Magica on the credits page. My mistake for spreading misinformation!
No, you're not. Just not remembering the when.
AM was licensed out, then they got the rights back. They then sold them to Atlas, who still owns them.
 

aramis erak

Legend
And now for the post I actually intended to write...

I'm sore disappointed with TOR 2E, especially after running a nummber of 1E campaigns.

The One Ring 2E mangled the core mechanics and combat... Hope is both less valuable and easier to regain. It went from 1/1R being add att to roll after determining success/failure to add 1d6 before rolling.

My players (half experienced with 1E, half not) were extremely reluctant to spend hope, beccause if was unclear if it was going to matter, and yet miserable is so overly bad, that they were unwilling to use it.

Experience is now flat rate and bland, rather than 1/1R based upon use and traits. 5 SP and 3 AP per session.

Distinctive features no longer grant autosuccess, instead granting a second d12, keep 1. (provided, of course, you don't get one from elsewhere). Non-DF Traits are absent entirely in 2E. NPC distinctions are nerfed even further, to a +1d6/-1d6 ...

Combat with minor foes is almost worthless... with most PC's in the 16+ range for TN to be hit.
TN, [miss, base hit, base +1, base+2, base+3, etc]
2d (all of n=432)
TN: 14 : [251, 101, 70, 10, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 15 : [284, 79, 60, 9, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 16 : [314, 60, 50, 8, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 17 : [340, 45, 40, 7, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 18 : [361, 35, 30, 6, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 19 : [376, 29, 22, 5, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 20 : [386, 26, 16, 4, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 21 : [392, 25, 12, 3, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 22 : [395, 25, 10, 2, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 23 : [396, 25, 10, 1, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 24 : [396, 25, 10, 1, 0, 0, 0]
TN: 25 : [396, 25, 10, 1, 0, 0, 0]
3d (of 2592):
TN: 14 : [791, 874, 738, 177, 12, 0, 0]
TN: 15 : [986, 751, 672, 171, 12, 0, 0]
TN: 16 : [1188, 630, 600, 162, 12, 0, 0]
TN: 17 : [1390, 515, 525, 150, 12, 0, 0]
TN: 18 : [1585, 410, 450, 135, 12, 0, 0]
TN: 19 : [1766, 320, 375, 120, 11, 0, 0]
TN: 20 : [1926, 248, 303, 105, 10, 0, 0]
TN: 21 : [2061, 195, 237, 90, 9, 0, 0]
TN: 22 : [2169, 160, 180, 75, 8, 0, 0]
TN: 23 : [2250, 140, 135, 60, 7, 0, 0]
TN: 24 : [2306, 130, 105, 45, 6, 0, 0]
TN: 25 : [2341, 126, 87, 33, 5, 0, 0]

Part of the problem is that monster attacks aren't listed as getting their attribute level added to the die roll, so most monsters (having 3 skill in their weapon) miss unless facing a PC in forward stance... My players had a minimum 16 Protection, before shields, and so most NPC attacks just bounce.
And yes, one of the PC's had a 25 vs opening volleys... and a 22 in kit.
Meanwhile, most of the PCs were hitting about 75% of the time...

A Barrow Wight was killed off by a party of 6....

It''s not without some merits, tho'... the travel rules are MUCH improved.
Songs are, rightfully, in the 2E core. They are, however, SEVERELY nerfed vs the rules in 1E Rivendell... All they do in 2E is remove Wearines... A rare state in my 2E run.

NPC templates no longer include non-combat abilities at all....

I think that Attribute Level not affecting to hits for NPCs and being the primary PC factor, that's a bit too far into asymmetry for me.

2E wasn't good for my players nor for me.
 
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James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
Those were not stolen - those were part of Reinđźž„Hagen's setting from the start.
Lion Rampant was Reinđźž„Hagen; he then took his vampire game to WWG... and included the Tremere post-accident.

Mage was built upon AM 1 being crossed into WWG StoryTeller mechanics.

People often don't realize they both originate from M. Reinđźž„Hagen.
(and yes, the dot is a prentious bit of his... but I'll put it in because it's how he presents himself to the gaming public.)
Yes, I had this pointed out to me as well. Faulty memory due to me not getting those mental ability score buffs for middle age. I could have sworn one of the books had a blurb about "now we have Ars Magica too!" on the credits page, but if they already owned the game, I obviously am mistaken.
 

Staffan

Legend
No, you're not. Just not remembering the when.
AM was licensed out, then they got the rights back. They then sold them to Atlas, who still owns them.
The history goes something like this:

First, Lion Rampant and White Wolf Magazine are separate companies. Lion Rampant makes Ars Magica 1st and 2nd editions and some other stuff like Whimsy Cards, and White Wolf Magazine makes, well, White Wolf Magazine.

In 1991, the two merge into White Wolf Game Studio. There is likely some announcement in the magazine about this. The same year, White Wolf publishes Vampire, with Tremere as one of the clans, suggesting that it's a sequel to Ars Magica.

1992 sees the release of Ars Magica 3rd ed, which is the one that's been adjusted to more clearly be a prequel to Vampire. It also includes Reason as sort of a Realm of Power, or at least their opposite.

Mage is released in 1993, and features the Technocracy as one of the main opposition forces to the protagonist Tradition mages (and with the Order of Hermes being one of those traditions). It posits that the power of magic has waned since medieval times with the rise of Science!, as reflected in AM3.

1994 sees the sale of Ars Magica to Wizards of the Coast, who re-releases AM3 and starts working on a 4th edition. But in 1995, they decide that investing Magic money into RPGs is throwing good money after bad, and sell it on to Atlas Games who will eventually go on to make both a 4th and a 5th edition. At this point, Ars Magica and WOD start diverging from one another, so they share some names but the Tremere from Vampire are not the same as the Tremere from Ars Magica.
 

What RPG.net generally doesn't mention is that most of the games stick to one side or the other, few finding the middle ground. Sengoku is very much Hero-light. Friends tell me DBZ is very much on the Interlock side, tho' not really CP2020.

BGC was pretty much a mix, though. And in some cases, its just not going to be that visible the lean is on; you can make all kinds of arguments in either direction about the base resolution mechanic, attributes and skills. Does using the Complication system make it more Hero-like? Or just make it like Interlock with an add-on?
 

aramis erak

Legend
BGC was pretty much a mix, though. And in some cases, its just not going to be that visible the lean is on; you can make all kinds of arguments in either direction about the base resolution mechanic, attributes and skills. Does using the Complication system make it more Hero-like? Or just make it like Interlock with an add-on?
Given that the complication system isn't from either... no.
CNM was a solid enough game on its own.
Fuzion was like a box of petits-four without the cover sheet... you can tell there are 4 different flavors, but not which is which until you bit into it...
Also, given the 4e HSR, CNM was a let down... it wasn't really Interlock Supers, nor really Hero System, and it was competing with a still in print HSR4.... but, being Champions, it was the Hero fans who grabbed it, and found their HSR4/C4 corebook was still needed....
 

Given that the complication system isn't from either... no.

Uhm, it was mostly a slightly modified and renamed Disadvantage system, which absolutely came from Hero.

CNM was a solid enough game on its own.
Fuzion was like a box of petits-four without the cover sheet... you can tell there are 4 different flavors, but not which is which until you bit into it...
Also, given the 4e HSR, CNM was a let down... it wasn't really Interlock Supers, nor really Hero System, and it was competing with a still in print HSR4.... but, being Champions, it was the Hero fans who grabbed it, and found their HSR4/C4 corebook was still needed....

I'm not clear why you say that with the latter. CNM had any number of problems, but needing C4 wasn't one of them.
 

Voadam

Legend
BGC was pretty much a mix, though.

Given that the complication system isn't from either... no.
CNM was a solid enough game on its own.
Fuzion was like a box of petits-four without the cover sheet... you can tell there are 4 different flavors, but not which is which until you bit into it...
Also, given the 4e HSR, CNM was a let down... it wasn't really Interlock Supers, nor really Hero System, and it was competing with a still in print HSR4.... but, being Champions, it was the Hero fans who grabbed it, and found their HSR4/C4 corebook was still needed....
The acronyms have left me behind here. I have no idea how a lot of these connect up to the listed fuzion games. "Hero/Champions and Cyberpunk, and Victoriana 1e, Usagi Yojimbo 1e, Dragonball Z, Sengoku, Bubblegum Crisis, Teenagers From Outer Space, and a few others."

DBZ I could link to Dragonball Z.

BGC is Bubblegum Crisis, I am guessing, but I had to relook up the list of Fuzion games to get there.

HSR might be a heroes book? C4 is probably either a Champions or a Cyberpunk one.
Not being deep into these games or the associated properties the acronyms do not jump out at me as instantly recognizable things here.
 

The acronyms have left me behind here. I have no idea how a lot of these connect up to the listed fuzion games. "Hero/Champions and Cyberpunk, and Victoriana 1e, Usagi Yojimbo 1e, Dragonball Z, Sengoku, Bubblegum Crisis, Teenagers From Outer Space, and a few others."

DBZ I could link to Dragonball Z.

BGC is Bubblegum Crisis, I am guessing, but I had to relook up the list of Fuzion games to get there.

HSR might be a heroes book? C4 is probably either a Champions or a Cyberpunk one.
Not being deep into these games or the associated properties the acronyms do not jump out at me as instantly recognizable things here.

By C4 I'm pretty sure he's referring to Hero 4e (the publication history of Hero is a little peculiar, because 4e was the point where they stopped being Champions and a bunch of associated games and became a generalized system with specific sourcebooks in a vaguely GURPS-like fashion. HSR is usually an an abbreviation for Hero System Rules (i.e. that core rules set that isn't genre specific).
 


aramis erak

Legend
By C4 I'm pretty sure he's referring to Hero 4e (the publication history of Hero is a little peculiar, because 4e was the point where they stopped being Champions and a bunch of associated games and became a generalized system with specific sourcebooks in a vaguely GURPS-like fashion. HSR is usually an an abbreviation for Hero System Rules (i.e. that core rules set that isn't genre specific).
C4 = Champions 4th. In that edition, the core was sold both with the Champions setting built in (Champions 4E, a 1" thick hardcover, aka the big blue book, big blue bullet stopper, etc), and the half-inch or 5/8" thick Hero System 4th Edition. All of HSR4 is, page for page, in C4...

HSR is indeed Hero System Rules volume -- note that there is no separate HSR before Hero 4th edition, since all the others are based upon whichever Champions was in publication when written.
 

C4 = Champions 4th. In that edition, the core was sold both with the Champions setting built in (Champions 4E, a 1" thick hardcover, aka the big blue book, big blue bullet stopper, etc), and the half-inch or 5/8" thick Hero System 4th Edition. All of HSR4 is, page for page, in C4...

Ah. You're distinguishing between what we called the Big Blue Book and the Little Yellow Book back in the day. I had forgotten that technically the BBB was Champions while the LYB was Hero System.

HSR is indeed Hero System Rules volume -- note that there is no separate HSR before Hero 4th edition, since all the others are based upon whichever Champions was in publication when written.

Yeah, that's what I was referring to in talking about the oddity of the publication history. 5e didn't even really have a separate Champions rulebook as we think of it (there was a Champions book, but it was pretty much setting only (Champions Complete, on the other hand, does include the 6e rules).
 

CNM was a let down... it wasn't really Interlock Supers, nor really Hero System, and it was competing with a still in print HSR4.... but, being Champions, it was the Hero fans who grabbed it, and found their HSR4/C4 corebook was still needed....
I should have listed Champions: New Millennium, but it's a weird one for our group, because we didn't like the previous editions either.

We didn't like Champions/Hero, like, ever. We tried very hard to like it as everyone told us it was the best supers game, but I dunno who it was in the group who described it as something like "Tedious WW2 squad combat skirmish wargame meets overcomplicated and poorly-balanced power design rules", probably my brother, but it stuck. Apart from GURPS Supers (which might as well have been called "GURPS: This is why you don't give people 400 points and access to all the books"), I've never played a superhero RPG that felt less about superheroes/superheroics.

We thought, fools that we were, that Fuzion might fix the issues Champions had by using a more streamlined system. Oh boy.

So we bought C:NM. Everyone made PCs, and there were some great ideas even if it was a bit "Image era" (esp. given one of the PCs had a backstory that involved that he was "never going back to jail"), and I set up a first adventure, which admittedly, did feature a good number of super-villains to fight at once. I was familiar with Fuzion's rules and very familiar with Interlock, as were we all.

The adventure started okay, but when we got to the "big fight", which might have taken, say, 40 minutes or so to resolve in Marvel FASERIP, say, things really bogged down. Turns out C:NM was neither fish nor fowl and had brought in tons of clunk from Champions, and lots of needless analysis-paralysis-encouraging choices from Fuzion.

The big fight took 5 hours to resolve. For what in game took, IIRC, 3 minutes.

Now I'm sure us being new to this specific version of Fuzion was part of it, but 5 hours?! For like, 4 superheroes vs 5 villains (two of the latter kind of weedy). Good god. It may be the only RPG that my group played and then said "Okay, we're not playing this ever again" after a single session of. It wasn't even a fun 5 hours, particularly not as the segment-based system meant some players got way more "goes" than others (of course the analysis paralysis made this even worse, esp. as the player with the most "goes" had unwittingly designed his PC to give himself particularly acute analysis paralysis).

EDIT - Man I really want to complain GURPS Supers more one day, good god that was a bad idea. C:NM was tedious but GURPS Supers was just basically a bad idea from the ground up.
 
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Scottius

Explorer
I should have listed Champions: New Millennium, but it's a weird one for our group, because we didn't like the previous editions either.

We didn't like Champions/Hero, like, ever. We tried very hard to like it as everyone told us it was the best supers game, but I dunno who it was in the group who described it as something like "Tedious WW2 squad combat skirmish wargame meets overcomplicated and poorly-balanced power design rules", probably my brother, but it stuck. Apart from GURPS Supers (which might as well have been called "GURPS: This is why you don't give people 400 points and access to all the books"), I've never played a superhero RPG that felt less about superheroes/superheroics.

We thought, fools that we were, that Fuzion might fix the issues Champions had by using a more streamlined system. Oh boy.

So we bought C:NM. Everyone made PCs, and there were some great ideas even if it was a bit "Image era" (esp. given one of the PCs had a backstory that involved that he was "never going back to jail"), and I set up a first adventure, which admittedly, did feature a good number of super-villains to fight at once. I was familiar with Fuzion's rules and very familiar with Interlock, as were we all.

The adventure started okay, but when we got to the "big fight", which might have taken, say, 40 minutes or so to resolve in Marvel FASERIP, say, things really bogged down. Turns out C:NM was neither fish nor fowl and had brought in tons of clunk from Champions, and lots of needless analysis-paralysis-encouraging choices from Fuzion.

The big fight took 5 hours to resolve. For what in game took, IIRC, 3 minutes.

Now I'm sure us being new to this specific version of Fuzion was part of it, but 5 hours?! For like, 4 superheroes vs 5 villains (two of the latter kind of weedy). Good god. It may be the only RPG that my group played and then said "Okay, we're not playing this ever again" after a single session of. It wasn't even a fun 5 hours, particularly not as the segment-based system meant some players got way more "goes" than others (of course the analysis paralysis made this even worse, esp. as the player with the most "goes" had unwittingly designed his PC to give himself particularly acute analysis paralysis).

EDIT - Man I really want to complain GURPS Supers more one day, good god that was a bad idea. C:NM was tedious but GURPS Supers was just basically a bad idea from the ground up.
Yeah, GURPS has always been a good realistic to cinematic level game but not good for really high power stuff like Supers. I remember reading an article in Pyramid back in the day where they were talking about statting out Vampires and Werewolves from World of Darkness for the upcoming GURPS WOD books and I think it was something like Vampires were equivalent to a Supers character while Werewolves were around 1000 point monstrosities.
 

Ulfgeir

Hero
Yeah, GURPS has always been a good realistic to cinematic level game but not good for really high power stuff like Supers. I remember reading an article in Pyramid back in the day where they were talking about statting out Vampires and Werewolves from World of Darkness for the upcoming GURPS WOD books and I think it was something like Vampires were equivalent to a Supers character while Werewolves were around 1000 point monstrosities.
Was that for GURPS 3 or 4e? as the character cost in 4e is higher.
 




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