Games with "terrible" follow-up editions

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
I personally didn’t like the way Mutants & Masterminds went after 2Ed, but it wasn’t so annoying that I hated it. I simply didn’t buy any of it.
2e MnM mechanics made perfect sense to me; I found them fun, intuitive, and flexible. (I also found character creation to be a giant pain in the ass, but I could live with that.) I still haven't figured out why, but 3e mechanics still don't make much sense to me. I think it's in the book layout -- powers aren't where or what I expect them to be and we're still cloudy on a bunch of game mechanics that should be obvious. I'd say it's just me, but two groups I've been in feel the same way.

Regardless, gosh, I love MnM. I just wish I'd stuck with 2e.
 

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2e MnM mechanics made perfect sense to me; I found them fun, intuitive, and flexible. (I also found character creation to be a giant pain in the ass, but I could live with that.) I still haven't figured out why, but 3e mechanics still don't make much sense to me. I think it's in the book layout -- powers aren't where or what I expect them to be and we're still cloudy on a bunch of game mechanics that should be obvious. I'd say it's just me, but two groups I've been in feel the same way.

Regardless, gosh, I love MnM. I just wish I'd stuck with 2e.

Its got to be that because, honestly, the mechanics didn't change that much between 2e and 3e; the biggest changes there were the way attributes were broken down and handled, and the rolling together of a bunch of powers in Affliction. But all the actual resolution systems are almost identical (depending on how you feel about the Stun/Daze change).
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
2e MnM mechanics made perfect sense to me; I found them fun, intuitive, and flexible. (I also found character creation to be a giant pain in the ass, but I could live with that.) I still haven't figured out why, but 3e mechanics still don't make much sense to me. I think it's in the book layout -- powers aren't where or what I expect them to be and we're still cloudy on a bunch of game mechanics that should be obvious. I'd say it's just me, but two groups I've been in feel the same way.

Regardless, gosh, I love MnM. I just wish I'd stuck with 2e.
Nothing stopping you from going back…🤷🏾‍♂️
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
2e MnM mechanics made perfect sense to me; I found them fun, intuitive, and flexible. (I also found character creation to be a giant pain in the ass, but I could live with that.) I still haven't figured out why, but 3e mechanics still don't make much sense to me. I think it's in the book layout -- powers aren't where or what I expect them to be and we're still cloudy on a bunch of game mechanics that should be obvious. I'd say it's just me, but two groups I've been in feel the same way.

Regardless, gosh, I love MnM. I just wish I'd stuck with 2e.
Book organization is an issue - I get along better with the DC Adventures book as a quicker reference on MnM 3 than the main line rulebook. I also like the breakout of two of the uber stats into sub-stats.

That said, the big change in MnM editions, I thought, was 1e to 2e. In 1e, I'd have pegged MnM as being at a midpoint between superhero games like Champions (power component point buy) and Villains and Vigilantes (pre-defined powers). The powers were bought with points but incorporated broader power definitions and effects bought with the same power. It's one of the aspects of MnM that really sold me on the game. 2e pushed it more into the Champions direction.
 


Came in here knowing it was Shadowrun. The sheer amount of errors in the 6th ed core is a crime. And dont get me started on armor.

Me, I'll stick with 3rd ed.

Or Shadowrun Anarchy which is what SR has needed in a LONG time. Streamlined simple rules.

Honestly I hope 7th ed finds a middle ground between the main line and Anarchy. SR needs a massive rules overhaul.

Oh and another game: World of Darkness D20. HILARIOUS adaption.
 
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Unfortunately for people sharing your view, its exactly what a lot of SR fans don't want. So in practice it didn't really take off, and arguably just created a broken base.

Which is why I hope 7th ed will not just rearrange the crunch again and look to trying to streamline a few things without going to far. Ive played every edition and I still couldn't tell you right now how combat works off the top of my head passed "Add skill and stat".
 
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Which is why I hope 7th ed will just rearrange the crunch again and look to trying to streamline a few things with going to far. Ive played every edition and I still couldn't tell you right now how combat works off the top of my head passed "Add skill and stat".

The question is whether the pieces of rope between simplifying and keeping enough crunch for the majority of its fanbase are pieces of rope that meet in the middle.
 

Staffan

Legend
Also the Dark Side Point mechanic in d6 was the single greatest mechanic in any RPG ever devised. It literally seduces the Jedi PLAYERS to embrace the dark side.

The mechanic in Force & Destiny is also pretty insidious. It boils down to this:

  • The Force Die is a d12 with 1 black dot on 6 sides, 2 black dots on 1 side, 1 white dot on 2 sides, and 2 white dots on 3 sides. Black dots represent the Dark Side, white the Light Side. Note the balance here: there are more sides with black dots on them, but the total number of dots are the same. The Dark Side is not stronger, but it is quicker. Easier. More seductive.
  • When you want to use a force power, you roll a number of Force dice equal to your Force Rating. A starting character has 1, and building up to 2 or more will likely take a while as "+1 Force Rating" is usually found pretty deep into the various talent trees.
  • Normally, you get one force point to spend on activating your force power for each white dot you roll.
  • But here's the kicker: you can also call on the dark side and get force points for the black dots. And of course, that's something you'd do if you didn't roll enough white dots, which means there are black dots to use instead. This has certain costs, and one of those costs is pushing you toward the Dark Side. But it means that the Dark Side is always there, tempting. You can save your friend, just give in to your fear of loss and you'll get the strength to do it. Come on, you know you want to...

Well considering that they outright stole House Tremere and the Order of Hermes for the World of Darkness, I guess it was inevitable that when they got the license, things would be retconned.
I don't think you can use the word "stole" when both games were designed by the same person.

White Wolf didn't "get the license" for Ars Magica. Ars Magica was originally published by a company named Lion Rampant, which consisted of Jonathan Tweet and Mark Rein-Hagen. Eventually, Lion Rampant merged with White Wolf Magazine and formed White Wolf Game Studio. Then Mark wrote Vampire, and decided to include a modern version of the Tremere as one of the vampire clans, and eventually when they did Mage the entire Order of Hermes became one of the Traditions. But at this point, the World of Darkness was definitely considered to be the future of Ars Magica, and when they wrote Ars Magica 3rd ed they brought back some WoD concepts, such as adding Reason as a fifth semi-Realm of Power.
 

Ulfgeir

Hero
Oh, and more info regarding "Drakar och Demoner" which @Staffan wrote about...

Riotminds, owned the name Drakar och Demoner, as well as the name Ereb Altor, which was the name of the setting in the old versiosn. They did not own the rights to the stuff in that setting... And last year Free Leage bought the rights from RiotMinds. I think I read that they paid around 1 million SEK for it. Will be interesting to see what they can do with it. But the last version from Riotminds got really really bad reviews.

Helmgast has published a game called Kopparhavets Hjältar. They tracked down the original rightsholders and got permission to use some of the original material, and thehn they did their own take on that setting. They did not own the name of Drakar och Demoner or Ereb Altor though.. It is a mess..

But votes for bad follow-up versions would be:

  • Mutants & Masterminds 3e. 2e Was very good imo, although a bit crunchy and some things were spread out so it was hard to find.
  • Drakar och Demoner 1991-version. Best was Expert Drakar och Demoner.
  • Shadowrun 4e and onwards...
 

Staffan

Legend
Helmgast has published a game called Kopparhavets Hjältar. They tracked down the original rightsholders and got permission to use some of the original material, and thehn they did their own take on that setting. They did not own the name of Drakar och Demoner or Ereb Altor though.. It is a mess..
Now I'm wondering if Helmgast has any plans on translating Hjältarnas Tid or Kopparhavets Hjältar into English. The Troubleshooters seems to be a modest success, and they use more-or-less the same system.
 

Ulfgeir

Hero
Now I'm wondering if Helmgast has any plans on translating Hjältarnas Tid or Kopparhavets Hjältar into English. The Troubleshooters seems to be a modest success, and they use more-or-less the same system.
I doubt it. Don't think they are unique enough for it. I mean there are 13 fantasy games to a dozen...
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
The mechanic in Force & Destiny is also pretty insidious. It boils down to this:

  • The Force Die is a d12 with 1 black dot on 6 sides, 2 black dots on 1 side, 1 white dot on 2 sides, and 2 white dots on 3 sides. Black dots represent the Dark Side, white the Light Side. Note the balance here: there are more sides with black dots on them, but the total number of dots are the same. The Dark Side is not stronger, but it is quicker. Easier. More seductive.
  • When you want to use a force power, you roll a number of Force dice equal to your Force Rating. A starting character has 1, and building up to 2 or more will likely take a while as "+1 Force Rating" is usually found pretty deep into the various talent trees.
  • Normally, you get one force point to spend on activating your force power for each white dot you roll.
  • But here's the kicker: you can also call on the dark side and get force points for the black dots. And of course, that's something you'd do if you didn't roll enough white dots, which means there are black dots to use instead. This has certain costs, and one of those costs is pushing you toward the Dark Side. But it means that the Dark Side is always there, tempting. You can save your friend, just give in to your fear of loss and you'll get the strength to do it. Come on, you know you want to...


I don't think you can use the word "stole" when both games were designed by the same person.

White Wolf didn't "get the license" for Ars Magica. Ars Magica was originally published by a company named Lion Rampant, which consisted of Jonathan Tweet and Mark Rein-Hagen. Eventually, Lion Rampant merged with White Wolf Magazine and formed White Wolf Game Studio. Then Mark wrote Vampire, and decided to include a modern version of the Tremere as one of the vampire clans, and eventually when they did Mage the entire Order of Hermes became one of the Traditions. But at this point, the World of Darkness was definitely considered to be the future of Ars Magica, and when they wrote Ars Magica 3rd ed they brought back some WoD concepts, such as adding Reason as a fifth semi-Realm of Power.
I must be misremembering things, I could have sworn one of my early White Wolf books had an announcement that they had just got the rights to Ars Magica on the credits page. My mistake for spreading misinformation!
 



Staffan

Legend
I must be misremembering things, I could have sworn one of my early White Wolf books had an announcement that they had just got the rights to Ars Magica on the credits page. My mistake for spreading misinformation!
Sounds like something that could have been in White Wolf Magazine. I'm not sure if White Wolf published any games on their own before the merger – Vampire was definitely later.

But WW "getting the rights to" Ars Magica isn't wrong, per se. It's just that it's because they bought/merged with the company who made it, not because they licensed it.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
Sounds like something that could have been in White Wolf Magazine. I'm not sure if White Wolf published any games on their own before the merger – Vampire was definitely later.

But WW "getting the rights to" Ars Magica isn't wrong, per se. It's just that it's because they bought/merged with the company who made it, not because they licensed it.
Still my contention that they ripped off AM is obviously very wrong, and I thank you for the education. So old dogs can learn new tricks!
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
I don't think you can use the word "stole" when both games were designed by the same person.
[out-of-left-field-tangent]But if Saul Zaentz owned the Ars Magica IP, a lawsuit would surely have followed... see his lawsuit against John Fogerty for infringing on the sound and song styles of Creedence Clearwater Revival.[/tangent]
 

DrunkonDuty

he/him
Came in here knowing it was Shadowrun. The sheer amount of errors in the 6th ed core is a crime. And dont get me started on armor.

Me, I'll stick with 3rd ed.

Or Shadowrun Anarchy which is what SR has needed in a LONG time. Streamlined simple rules.

Honestly I hope 7th ed finds a middle ground between the main line and Anarchy. SR needs a massive rules overhaul.

I'd not heard of SR Anarchy. I've just downloaded the pdf, I'll give it a read. Thanks!
 

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