Games with "terrible" follow-up editions

[Piratecat]

I personally didn’t like the way Mutants & Masterminds went after 2Ed, but it wasn’t so annoying that I hated it. I simply didn’t buy any of it.

2e MnM mechanics made perfect sense to me; I found them fun, intuitive, and flexible. (I also found character creation to be a giant pain in the ass, but I could live with that.) I still haven't figured out why, but 3e mechanics still don't make much sense to me. I think it's in the book layout -- powers aren't where or what I expect them to be and we're still cloudy on a bunch of game mechanics that should be obvious. I'd say it's just me, but two groups I've been in feel the same way.

Regardless, gosh, I love MnM. I just wish I'd stuck with 2e.

 

[Thomas Shey]

2e MnM mechanics made perfect sense to me; I found them fun, intuitive, and flexible. (I also found character creation to be a giant pain in the ass, but I could live with that.) I still haven't figured out why, but 3e mechanics still don't make much sense to me. I think it's in the book layout -- powers aren't where or what I expect them to be and we're still cloudy on a bunch of game mechanics that should be obvious. I'd say it's just me, but two groups I've been in feel the same way.

Regardless, gosh, I love MnM. I just wish I'd stuck with 2e.

Its got to be that because, honestly, the mechanics didn't change that much between 2e and 3e; the biggest changes there were the way attributes were broken down and handled, and the rolling together of a bunch of powers in Affliction. But all the actual resolution systems are almost identical (depending on how you feel about the Stun/Daze change).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

2e MnM mechanics made perfect sense to me; I found them fun, intuitive, and flexible. (I also found character creation to be a giant pain in the ass, but I could live with that.) I still haven't figured out why, but 3e mechanics still don't make much sense to me. I think it's in the book layout -- powers aren't where or what I expect them to be and we're still cloudy on a bunch of game mechanics that should be obvious. I'd say it's just me, but two groups I've been in feel the same way.

Regardless, gosh, I love MnM. I just wish I'd stuck with 2e.

Nothing stopping you from going back…

 

[billd91]

2e MnM mechanics made perfect sense to me; I found them fun, intuitive, and flexible. (I also found character creation to be a giant pain in the ass, but I could live with that.) I still haven't figured out why, but 3e mechanics still don't make much sense to me. I think it's in the book layout -- powers aren't where or what I expect them to be and we're still cloudy on a bunch of game mechanics that should be obvious. I'd say it's just me, but two groups I've been in feel the same way.

Regardless, gosh, I love MnM. I just wish I'd stuck with 2e.

Book organization is an issue - I get along better with the DC Adventures book as a quicker reference on MnM 3 than the main line rulebook. I also like the breakout of two of the uber stats into sub-stats.

That said, the big change in MnM editions, I thought, was 1e to 2e. In 1e, I'd have pegged MnM as being at a midpoint between superhero games like Champions (power component point buy) and Villains and Vigilantes (pre-defined powers). The powers were bought with points but incorporated broader power definitions and effects bought with the same power. It's one of the aspects of MnM that really sold me on the game. 2e pushed it more into the Champions direction.

 

[Piratecat]

Nothing stopping you from going back…

We debated before our current MnM game; I'm not the GM, and most players had 3e material but not 2e, so we went that direction. It's the sort of thing that annoys me but isn't a deal-breaker; I'm just being whiny.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Came in here knowing it was Shadowrun. The sheer amount of errors in the 6th ed core is a crime. And dont get me started on armor.

Me, I'll stick with 3rd ed.

Or Shadowrun Anarchy which is what SR has needed in a LONG time. Streamlined simple rules.

Honestly I hope 7th ed finds a middle ground between the main line and Anarchy. SR needs a massive rules overhaul.

Oh and another game: World of Darkness D20. HILARIOUS adaption.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Or Shadowrun Anarchy which is what SR has needed in a LONG time. Streamlined simple rules.

Unfortunately for people sharing your view, its exactly what a lot of SR fans don't want. So in practice it didn't really take off, and arguably just created a broken base.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Unfortunately for people sharing your view, its exactly what a lot of SR fans don't want. So in practice it didn't really take off, and arguably just created a broken base.

Which is why I hope 7th ed will not just rearrange the crunch again and look to trying to streamline a few things without going to far. Ive played every edition and I still couldn't tell you right now how combat works off the top of my head passed "Add skill and stat".

 

[Thomas Shey]

Which is why I hope 7th ed will just rearrange the crunch again and look to trying to streamline a few things with going to far. Ive played every edition and I still couldn't tell you right now how combat works off the top of my head passed "Add skill and stat".

The question is whether the pieces of rope between simplifying and keeping enough crunch for the majority of its fanbase are pieces of rope that meet in the middle.

 

[Staffan]

Also the Dark Side Point mechanic in d6 was the single greatest mechanic in any RPG ever devised. It literally seduces the Jedi PLAYERS to embrace the dark side.

The mechanic in Force & Destiny is also pretty insidious. It boils down to this:

• The Force Die is a d12 with 1 black dot on 6 sides, 2 black dots on 1 side, 1 white dot on 2 sides, and 2 white dots on 3 sides. Black dots represent the Dark Side, white the Light Side. Note the balance here: there are more sides with black dots on them, but the total number of dots are the same. The Dark Side is not stronger, but it is quicker. Easier. More seductive.
• When you want to use a force power, you roll a number of Force dice equal to your Force Rating. A starting character has 1, and building up to 2 or more will likely take a while as "+1 Force Rating" is usually found pretty deep into the various talent trees.
• Normally, you get one force point to spend on activating your force power for each white dot you roll.
• But here's the kicker: you can also call on the dark side and get force points for the black dots. And of course, that's something you'd do if you didn't roll enough white dots, which means there are black dots to use instead. This has certain costs, and one of those costs is pushing you toward the Dark Side. But it means that the Dark Side is always there, tempting. You can save your friend, just give in to your fear of loss and you'll get the strength to do it. Come on, you know you want to...

Well considering that they outright stole House Tremere and the Order of Hermes for the World of Darkness, I guess it was inevitable that when they got the license, things would be retconned.

I don't think you can use the word "stole" when both games were designed by the same person.

White Wolf didn't "get the license" for Ars Magica. Ars Magica was originally published by a company named Lion Rampant, which consisted of Jonathan Tweet and Mark Rein-Hagen. Eventually, Lion Rampant merged with White Wolf Magazine and formed White Wolf Game Studio. Then Mark wrote Vampire, and decided to include a modern version of the Tremere as one of the vampire clans, and eventually when they did Mage the entire Order of Hermes became one of the Traditions. But at this point, the World of Darkness was definitely considered to be the future of Ars Magica, and when they wrote Ars Magica 3rd ed they brought back some WoD concepts, such as adding Reason as a fifth semi-Realm of Power.