Gay Rights

[Morrus]

I wonder how many people personally dislike gays/gay marriage and just use religion for their reason, vs. how many people would be ok with gays/gay marriage but feel they can't honestly because of their religion.

I tend to agree with Umbran -- the issue is homophobia. Religion is often used as a mask for it. It's a very poor mask, however; we can all see right through it. That said, I can't see into minds of such people, so I can do no more than guess.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I wonder how many people personally dislike gays/gay marriage and just use religion for their reason, vs. how many people would be ok with gays/gay marriage but feel they can't honestly because of their religion.

Bullgrit

Tough question. It may not be a binary answer, but a spectrum.

I know my Mom genuinely loves the gays she knows. Always has. In general, she treats them no differently than anyone else, and they are not barred from her home, her presence in any way. Some were even on her personal "A-list" for social invitations.

Hell- one was even my babysitter for a couple of years. When we moved apart- both families were military- and encountered each other again many years later, they were shopping & theater/arts event buddies. The man has been dead for years, and she still misses him.

But I also know she is genuinely of the opinion that the SCOTUS is wrong on this one, and will not participate in any practice that condones gay marriage on the grounds that gay marriage is immoral.

 

[trappedslider]

Tough question. It may not be a binary answer, but a spectrum.

I know my Mom genuinely loves the gays she knows. Always has. In general, she treats them no differently than anyone else, and they are not barred from her home, her presence in any way. Some were even on her personal "A-list" for social invitations.

Hell- one was even my babysitter for a couple of years. When we moved apart- both families were military- and encountered each other again many years later, they were shopping & theater/arts event buddies. The man has been dead for years, and she still misses him.

But I also know she is genuinely of the opinion that the SCOTUS is wrong on this one, and will not participate in any practice that condones gay marriage on the grounds that gay marriage is immoral.

Yes there's a phrase that comes up "Love the sinner,but hate the sin"

 

[Morrus]

I will take a quick moment to quickly note that although folks may discuss politics and religion for now, that only means discussing it; at no point does that extend to actually making statements of, expressing, or promoting homophobic, sexist, racist, or other such beliefs here. I'm very glad that nobody has done so, but it's worth noting. This is an inclusive community.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yes there's a phrase that comes up "Love the sinner,but hate the sin"

Very familiar with it.

Unfortunately, IME, many who say it don't really live it. They seem to conflate the sin with the sinner, and go right ahead being unkind to the sinners in question.

I have noticed a few clergymen who have also recognized this, and have started to address the issue from the pulpit/altar, in an effort to change the behavior. Slooooow going, that.

When I get into a discussion of homosexuality on those grounds, I try to remind all participants that, according to our shared faith traditions, we're ALL sinners in some way. Then I point out that we don't generally act like asses to sinners of OTHER kinds, and ask what sets homosexuality apart from this other sins so that they get beaten, insulted, fired, refused service, evicted, etc.

There was a VERY thoroughly out gay guy- who was also a Wiccan- in one of my gaming groups. He had the misfortune of working alongside a staunch evangelical. He used to talk to us about her latest attempts at conversion, etc.

I told him he needed to make a hostile workplace complaint.

I realize that evangelicals take evangelization seriously, but it doesn't belong in the workplace. AND, since she seemed to be singling him out as the sole target of conversion, it really was inappropriate.

 

[MechaPilot]

Yes. Both of you used an argument that may tug at the moral heartstrings, but isn't legally relevant.

The argument for gay marriage equality isn't that marriage has been redefined over time. It is that there is no fundamental difference between a marriage between a man and a woman, and between two men (or two women). The argument for gay marriage is that legally speaking, you *don't* have to substantively redefine it to make it fit gay couples, and therefore the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment applies.

I believe the equal protection clause applies because the gay marriage is official in another state. For example, if Michigan honors the official heterosexual marriages of California, it should not be able to deny recognition of official homosexual marriages of California.

 

[MechaPilot]

Watch this :

The argument for marriage equality for polygamist is not that marriage has been redefined over time; it is that the ability to marry more than one person who is consenting, of legal age, and not too closely related is a fundamental right of society.

see what I did there?

Yes, I see that you completely ignored the context of how the contract of marriage actually functions in every state (i.e. between two people, regardless of race or gender) in order to word your statement so that it pretended that marriages are generally between more than two persons.

 

[Morrus]

I realize that evangelicals take evangelization seriously, but it doesn't belong in the workplace. AND, since she seemed to be singling him out as the sole target of conversion, it really was inappropriate.

Plus, of course, referring to someone's very existence and identity as a "sin" is extraordinarily obnoxious, no matter what book told them it was OK to do so.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Plus, of course, referring to someone's very existence and identity as a "sin" is extraordinarily obnoxious, no matter what book told them it was OK to do so.

Of course.

But remember, most people who utter that sentence in this context do not view sexual orientation as a relatively immutable characteristic, but rather, as purely a voluntary behavior. Framed that way, it is no different than any other sin.

Unless & until you can get them to believe the testimony of the people in question and the increasing weight of scientific findings on this, there is an unbridgeable gap. Protests to the contrary will only harden their resolve, since the instinctive reaction to being caught sinning/doing something wrong is denial that you did something wrong.

Similar reactions from differing root causes.

 

[Morrus]

But remember, most people who utter that sentence in this context do not view sexual orientation as a relatively immutable characteristic, but rather, as purely a voluntary behavior. Framed that way, it is no different than any other sin.

Sure. But ignorance is never an acceptable excuse for any form of -ism or similar behaviour. It just isn't. And such obnoxious behaviour - unlike homosexuality - actually is a choice, and choosing to say such things is a choice. One can't necessarily control how one feels, but one can control what one says.