D&D General Gen Con, Daisy, Sleeping in the Lobby and All That

[Ancalagon]

While this is a horrible thing to happen to anyone, I feel like... it could have been handled better, but it feels like we are making progress a bit?

 

[Ancalagon]

Perhaps that's the thing I've been missing in all this: the near immediate and severe consequences. That is yet another unique facet to this incident. And it's good! But also suspicious? Like... would the consequences have been so severe and quickly handled with a Bill Webb-type? Because the contrast between the fallout to those two incidents are night and day.

That may be my own personal hangups. I want to believe that the outcome here is "we have gotten much better, as a hobby and industry, at swiftly and appropriately taking action in the face of such actions" and not "it's a heck of a lot easier to punish this trans woman than a more powerful white male."

I hate to be cynical, always, but the spreading influence and power of transphobes, particularly in the US and UK, have sapped me of a lot of my hope for equity in short-term on this issue.

I must admit I hadn't considered that possibility... It may be a bit of both? :/

 

[Sir Brennen]

It hasn't been mentioned that I've seen, and, while not an excuse, it seems the perpetrator may have a substance abuse problem as well, and if so, I sincerely hope they have someone still that can support them in seeking help.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

What's Daisy Grants response to all this?

 

[darjr]

I cannot find GenCons response and while I think it might be because of me I’m starting to get very frustrated.

It should be made easy to find!

 

[Gradine]

Kobold Press has definitely released a statement, but I've seen nothing from GenCon itself

 

[mcmillan]

What's Daisy Grants response to all this?

I missed it, but heard from some discussion that seemed to suggest she initially minimized the situation before the victims had a chance to come forward (which was what prompted some to go public when they initially wanted to let GenCon deal with the report before making public statements if at all). The most specific description I saw was Superdillin's, where they call out comments saying it was 'brushing this off as "drunken cheek kisses" '. By the time it came on my radar Daisy had apparently deleted her initial comments and posted a tweet that if I remember right was a kind of non-specific apology and mentioned plans to seek out counseling. She's now deleted her twitter profile, and as far as I've seen not made any other public statements.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Maybe I'm cynical, but here's how I'm seeing it.

The people who are trying to keep bringing this up over and over to paint GenCon and the trans community as predators are the same ones who when Frank Mentzer got banned from Gary Con, blamed Luke and didn't hold Frank responsible for his actions. Contrast that to the trans community which immediately voiced how Daisy should be held accountable.

And that's the difference, as I am seeing it.

edit let me clarify. With Frank, there was disagreement* on if he should be punished, and disagreement leads to conversation. With Daisy, everyone agrees she should be responsible. When everyone agrees, there isn't much conversation.

* there shouldn't be disagreement, but we all know why there was.

I think I agree with this, in that a big difference is coming from the fact that no one is attempting to defend her actions. And there could be a LOT of different factors at play here. From the progress of society to swiftly hold people accountable, to a sect of people who feel validated in their beliefs on this, to her not really challenging the story once it started coming out.

One I don't think we should dismiss either, and I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, is that most of the big stories like this in recent years involved older people. And this has two big effects.

1) When you've spent many many years idolizing someone, to throw a random name from a hat out there, like George Lucas it becomes more important to you to defend them. This is someone you've respected for decades, they couldn't possibly [insert thing here] so there must be some mistake. While Daisy was popular, she was relatively new as I understand it? Certainly she hadn't been a big name for more than 5 years. So there isn't that inertia that comes with "this person shaped my childhood" that many older creators have.

2) I don't know what it is, I don't know if it is a real thing even or just an excuse I've seen a million times, but there is a section of people who fall into the "times are changing, this used to be alright and I didn't know better" category. Maybe this comes from many of these sort of sexual assaults involving older men, but I've heard this excuse many many times. And, it has a grain of truth to it. Casual Sexual Harrasment was a thing for a few decades many years ago. And so there is a portion of that population who feel like the rug was pulled under them when we call them on it being unacceptable. Contrasting this though, the younger generation (40's and lower?) doesn't buy that. It has ALWAYS been expressed to be unacceptable my entire adult life, for example. And so with a fan base who tends younger, she won't find anyone to buy that excuse, and no one is going to try that excuse, because no one involved is old enough to try and make that claim.


And so, two of the most common factors, the "Nostalgia Forgiveness" and "Worst Excuse" can't come into play and drive the conversation. We all agree it happened, we all agree it was bad, and thus the conversation ends.

Depending on how cynical we want to be, this could be a sign of greased wheels for punishing minority populations, or we can take this as a sign that in the coming decades this will become the norm, because the middle-aged and young populations which are growing old and taking those positions of power are the ones who grew up with being confronted by their behavior and being told it was unacceptable.

I've got a rough week ahead, so I'm gonna go with the hope for the future model

 

[Steampunkette]

So... this sucks.

It sucks for the community, it sucks SO MUCH WORSE for the victim, it just sucks. Daisy should be ashamed and black balled and such. And from everything we're seeing, she will be.

There is a certain cynicism that tells me @Gradine is right. That a white guy doing the same thing would see a lot more support and people defending indefensible actions as they have for a long time. I also think that if this had been done by an older trans woman who was a staple of the industry, however, they might see the same or similar support.

The only thing I can do is hope that we're seeing companies find the right path forward, at long last. Take the allegations seriously, fire the employee, make a public statement, move on without re-litigating the matter.

Maybe the community, too... though that cynicism tells me it won't be true.

 

[Deset Gled]

There is a certain cynicism that tells me @Gradine is right. That a white guy doing the same thing would see a lot more support and people defending indefensible actions as they have for a long time. I also think that if this had been done by an older trans woman who was a staple of the industry, however, they might see the same or similar support.

The only thing I can do is hope that we're seeing companies find the right path forward, at long last. Take the allegations seriously, fire the employee, make a public statement, move on without re-litigating the matter.

Maybe the community, too... though that cynicism tells me it won't be true.

FWIW, the most similar incident I'm aware of involving a couple of white guys is Jeremy Hambly's assault (punching, not SA) outside of GenCon in 2018. This is the best summary I could find: Jeremy Hambly's Gen Con Assault Controversy