Geriatric Grumbling

[Drifter Bob]

I think D&D is fine as it is; there's certainly room for all flavors and styles within its framework, and I think flavor/style ultimately should be dealt wth at the campaign setting level, not at the core rules level. Now, if you ask me should there be a grimmer/grittier/more-shades-of-gray campaign setting and I'll say "sure, that sounds like fun." Oh, and as per the poll I'm 30+.

I'm not saying "D&D sucks" or anything like that. I am saying that there seems to be a trend in the rules themselves, which is pushing the 'culture' of D&D into this direction of a video game for 14 year olds. Admittedly, this is a subjective opinion and hard to concretely define, and you are perfectly entitled to belive that I'm crazy or stupid to think so.

DB

 

[T. Foster]

I agree with Ourph's post -- I don't like D&D's current 'kiddie appeal' cartoon/videogame styling, but if the choosing a 'more mature' D&D means White Wolf-style handwringing 'angst' and BoEF-style 'adult' nonsense IMO that's even worse. I want a non-politically correct, fast-moving action-oriented GAME that doesn't take itself too seriously, recalls the style and feel of Howard, Vance, Leiber, etc., and that adults can play without feeling embarrassed. So, while I voted that I want a "more mature" D&D I suspect my definition of "more mature" doesn't match that of a lot of other folks who voted the same way...

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

...any game with gray is usually more mature.

Or an excuse for the truly immature to dump a lot of pseudo-sexual angst all over the room.

Sorry. "Shades of gray" is one of those phrases that in real life leads into an excuse for poor behavior. Instead of acknowledging that an action had both negative and positive (black and white) results and taking responsibility for those that are negative, people hand wave it into a "gray area." Lets you get away with all kinds of things.

That's sort of the definition of irresponsible and immature, as far as I'm concerned.

Plus, it's actually a much simpler, even sophomoric, world view than a reasoned variety of Black & White.

As for the topic at hand... the rules are a tool for handling combat and some aspects of social interaction. What you do with them is entirely your business at your table. But a ruleset is neither "mature" or "immature." Some of the flavor text could be considered as such. But if you have a problem with it, re-write it. Heck, I rewrote the bits I didn't like. That part is almost as much fun as actually playing the game.

 

[Drifter Bob]

Or an excuse for the truly immature to dump a lot of pseudo-sexual angst all over the room.

Sorry. "Shades of gray" is one of those phrases that in real life leads into an excuse for poor behavior. Instead of acknowledging that an action had both negative and positive (black and white) results and taking responsibility for those that are negative, people hand wave it into a "gray area." Lets you get away with all kinds of things.

That's sort of the definition of irresponsible and immature, as far as I'm concerned.

Plus, it's actually a much simpler, even sophomoric, world view than a reasoned variety of Black & White.

...this is certainly a very 'black and white analysis!

As for the topic at hand... the rules are a tool for handling combat and some aspects of social interaction. What you do with them is entirely your business at your table. But a ruleset is neither "mature" or "immature." Some of the flavor text could be considered as such. But if you have a problem with it, re-write it. Heck, I rewrote the bits I didn't like. That part is almost as much fun as actually playing the game.

Of course everybody can make their own house rules, but if meanwhile all of the supporting documents including the D20 and OGL material is at this kiddie level, then it does have an overall effect.

DB

 

[Drifter Bob]

I agree with Ourph's post -- I don't like D&D's current 'kiddie appeal' cartoon/videogame styling, but if the choosing a 'more mature' D&D means White Wolf-style handwringing 'angst' and BoEF-style 'adult' nonsense IMO that's even worse.

Going from generic teenage boys mentality to a Goth teenage boys mentality is not what I mean by becomming more mature.

I want a non-politically correct, fast-moving action-oriented GAME that doesn't take itself too seriously, recalls the style and feel of Howard, Vance, Leiber, etc., and that adults can play without feeling embarrassed. So, while I voted that I want a "more mature" D&D I suspect my definition of "more mature" doesn't match that of a lot of other folks who voted the same way...

Seeing as I wrote a D20 book which is based on Jack Vance, I don't think we are so far apart. I would include the above within a range of more mature options. I think the point is to find a way to not restrict everyone to the same politicially correct, babyified (teenified) melting pot, if you will, but to let a few different kinds of themes come to light.

I think source book projects either direcyly based on or inspired by Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Robert E Howard, Lovecraft etc., would be far more succesful if they were done from a more mature perspective.

DB

 

[The Mad Kaiser]

Sorry. "Shades of gray" is one of those phrases that in real life leads into an excuse for poor behavior. Instead of acknowledging that an action had both negative and positive (black and white) results and taking responsibility for those that are negative, people hand wave it into a "gray area." Lets you get away with all kinds of things.

That's sort of the definition of irresponsible and immature, as far as I'm concerned.

Well put!

If you wish to have a more "mature" game, add consequence.

If a character kills a humanoid, odds are the humanoid had humanoid relatives, or the humanoid's society has rules. Killing becomes more than an activity when consequences are applied.

If a character steals and gets caught, he could be reviled by the whole village, not just the victim. A mob of peasants can be hard to stop, and this may lead to murder. Thievery becomes more than a skill check when consequences are applied.

Sexual daliance eventually leads to illegitimate children, disease, angry husbands and scorned women with thuggish connections. Whoring is not all giggles when consequences are applied.

Are far as boozing; addiction, poverty, hurt feelings, and hangovers aren't the best when consequences are applied.

 

[d4]

Of course everybody can make their own house rules, but if meanwhile all of the supporting documents including the D20 and OGL material is at this kiddie level, then it does have an overall effect.

good thing that is not the case.

i have to strongly disagree with your assessment that the game is more "kiddie-fied" now. i like D&D now under d20 as a 30-year old much, much better than i liked 1e as a 14-year old.

i think the game makes a lot more sense now, is more structured and logical, and the mechanics are simpler and smoother in play. if this "simplification" is the "kiddie level", then i'm all for it.

i never understood baroque complexity for its own sake, which is what previous editions of D&D were to me. if that's "more mature," then i don't want that.

 

[Drifter Bob]

Sorry. "Shades of gray" is one of those phrases that in real life leads into an excuse for poor behavior. Instead of acknowledging that an action had both

I think one of the specific ways DnD is dumbed down and made Disney-esque if you will, is in the interpretation of alignment. Players and NPC's often seem either cartoonishly good or cartoonishly evil, or they take a chaotic neutral alignment as a license to behave in whatever manner strikes their whim at the moment, i.e. totally random.

Many if not most of the characters in the best fantasy novels which RPG's are based on are very 'gray' characters, and yet they did have their own moral systems. Cugel, Gray Mouser, Fafrhed, Elric, and Conan were all morally gray in some way or another. Most would rob if they needed to without a second thought, and kill you if you crossed them. They certainly believed in revenge and would not hesitate to kill an enemy in cold blood if it seeemed necessary.

They were neither good nor evil nor randomly psychotic, but rather nuanced individuals who could make their own decisions, did live by their own personal code of honor or ethics (even if somewhat warped, like Cugels). I think this is an example of a gray area. Neutral alignments and personality archetypes could be played with much more subtlety than the rules, the culture, and even forums like this one seem to encourage. Even a good character can do bad things under certain circumstances, nor does being good mean that you have to follow the kind of "good guy" formulae depicted in Hollywood.

This is a big part of what I mean by a more mature game.

DB

 

[Drifter Bob]

If you wish to have a more "mature" game, add consequence.

If a character kills a humanoid, odds are the humanoid had humanoid relatives, or the humanoid's society has rules. Killing becomes more than an activity when consequences are applied.

If a character steals and gets caught, he could be reviled by the whole village, not just the victim. A mob of peasants can be hard to stop, and this may lead to murder. Thievery becomes more than a skill check when consequences are applied.

Sexual daliance eventually leads to illegitimate children, disease, angry husbands and scorned women with thuggish connections. Whoring is not all giggles when consequences are applied.

Are far as boozing; addiction, poverty, hurt feelings, and hangovers aren't the best when consequences are applied.

I agree with the above 100% actually. Part of a more mature game is in putting in the realistic consequenses of actions, good and bad, instead of just pretending certain things don't exist.

DB

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I agree with the above 100% actually. Part of a more mature game is in putting in the realistic consequenses of actions, good and bad, instead of just pretending certain things don't exist.

Again, it's not the rules that are your issue. It's the players and the flavor-text. Flavor-text is an easy change.

Can't help with your players, unfortunately.