Geriatric Grumbling

[Desdichado]

I'm 32, and my games are plenty mature without monkeying even more with the rules. Rules don't add maturity, IMO, anyway.

 

[Ourph]

Originally Posted by Ourph
I DON'T want a D&D that feels like an HBO soap opera! ::shudder::

have you ever seen one? <snip>
Sounds a lot like Deadwood or Carnivale to me...

I don't have anything against those shows. I have seen a few episodes of Deadwood and most of The Sopranos. I just don't go for quirky personalities or interpersonal dynamics much in my gaming preferences. I prefer most PC to PC conversations to be about how we're going to find more treasure, get past a trap or kick some monster's tail.

Originally Posted by Ourph
I want a D&D that knows it's a FREAKIN GAME, and doesn't try to be a mathematical and textual model of reality or (even worse) a framework for freeform improvisational storytelling.

Whats wrong with improvisational storytelling? Isn't that pretty much what the RP in RPG stands for?

No! "Role Playing" means playing a game in which you assume the role of a heroic fantasy figure. It doesn't have anything to do with acting or storytelling. Role assumption /= acting. Role assumption /= storytelling. Does the game sometimes create interesting stories? Sure! Is "creating a story" the purpose of the game? Not as far as I'm concerned. People seem to want to put an inordinate amount of emphasis on the first word in the term "Role Playing Game". Personally, I think the "Playing" and "Game" parts are equally as important, if not moreso.

Originally Posted By Ourph
I don't know if that's what most people would call "mature" or not. Probably not. Then again, labelling any form of entertainment that requires grown men to sit around a table pretending to be elves, dwarves and halflings "mature" seems like a stretch.

I think it's in the ballpark. I may not have expressed my vision so well (I think it should be a pretty broad field) but I think Fafrhed and Grey mouser dealt with a lot of both Romance (almost constantly) and mundane day to day life issues....

If you think Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser were engaging in "romance", then I think you and I have vastly different understandings of the definition of the word "romance". The women in their lives were there as window dressing and plot devices. They provided reasons to do stupid adventurous things and motivations to move on from a certain location.

The same goes for "day to day life issues". Fafhrd and the Mouser spent a lot of time boozing, arguing and disposing of their ill-gotten goods, but that's part of the adventurous life to me. "Day to day life issues" sounds like paying taxes, haggling with the repairman and deciding who gets to carry the luggage. You know...the things we play games to forget about. We learn in the course of their adventures on Stardock that Glinthi the Artificer manufactured the Mouser's miraculous climbing staff, but we don't have to read through the Mouser's haggling session with the talented inventor or who he ran into when he went to pick it up. The device is just THERE when it's important for the story.

 

[Olive]

I'm 32, and my games are plenty mature without monkeying even more with the rules. Rules don't add maturity, IMO, anyway.

Amen! Except I'm 27.

 

[Pierce_Inverarity]

It may make things unpleasant for the guilty character, but not his comrades. When that barmaid from 12 sessions past brings in the quarter-ork twins, his partners have a great time! (They've got your eyes, Gorach!)

I wasn't clear enough. I meant the orc kids you made orphans by killing their parents. Not "extracurricular" ophans, though those should be dealt with too.

Personally, most of the groups I've played with steer clear of the whole "romance role-playing" thing. The one time my bearded, 260 lb dm tried to role play a barmaid coming on to me was a little too hilarious for the session to continue. Call me shallow, but that whole believability thing smacked me in the face again ...

 

[Ourph]

IMO the rules DO make a difference in the maturity level of the game. More rules takes power out of the hands of the DM and the players. It discourages imagination and creativity by channeling thought into certain pre-determined modes. A mature game assumes maturity in the players. A mature ruleset provides a framework for challenge resolution without overburdening itself with the minutiae of each individual situation. A mature ruleset encourages maturity in its players by expecting it from the beginning.

The problem with the current incarnation of D&D (in my crotchety old grumbling opinion) is that it has a very very strong framework for challenge resolution but ruins the simplicity and elegance of this sytem by including numerous situations and options that modify the simple base system sixteen ways from Sunday. This seems to have been a response to the immature gamer who either can't use the simple framework fairly and consistently or who can't trust someone else to use the simple framework fairly and consistently. Immaturity demands that codified rules take the place of good judgement because immature players are generally more worried about winning and/or getting screwed over than they are about having fun.

 

[AIM-54]

IMO the rules DO make a difference in the maturity level of the game. More rules takes power out of the hands of the DM and the players. It discourages imagination and creativity by channeling thought into certain pre-determined modes. A mature game assumes maturity in the players. A mature ruleset provides a framework for challenge resolution without overburdening itself with the minutiae of each individual situation. A mature ruleset encourages maturity in its players by expecting it from the beginning.

The problem with the current incarnation of D&D (in my crotchety old grumbling opinion) is that it has a very very strong framework for challenge resolution but ruins the simplicity and elegance of this sytem by including numerous situations and options that modify the simple base system sixteen ways from Sunday. This seems to have been a response to the immature gamer who either can't use the simple framework fairly and consistently or who can't trust someone else to use the simple framework fairly and consistently. Immaturity demands that codified rules take the place of good judgement because immature players are generally more worried about winning and/or getting screwed over than they are about having fun.

And thus we have weird mechanics like grapple and bull rush that no one can remember the frickin' rules for, so we have to spend five minutes flipping through rule books to remember every time we want to use those rules...and we use them relatively often.

And my DM wonders why we rarely look to use the additional combat rules...

So, basically, I agree with Ourph here.

 

[The Mad Kaiser]

I wasn't clear enough. I meant the orc kids you made orphans by killing their parents. Not "extracurricular" ophans, though those should be dealt with too.

Well, ork children are one thing, but I meant human, elven, dwarven widows, orphans, etc made when characters slay bandits, soldiers and the like. Many widows of pirates and warlords may be grateful to have a new handsome, Lawful-Good husband that won't beat them if dinner is slow to the table.

Again, you don't need to linger on it; "I'll send the children to live with my mother and father in Grellgatowne, with a stipend of 5gp per month." or "Thanks to you for your generous donation to our temple, and be assured that the girls will be well cared for."

Personally, most of the groups I've played with steer clear of the whole "romance role-playing" thing.

It dosen't need to be a detailed dalliance that leads to offspring. A quick "I'll spend the night in Dorella's room tonight, heh heh" is all it took for Gorach to become a papa.

The one time my bearded, 260 lb dm tried to role play a barmaid coming on to me was a little too hilarious for the session to continue. Call me shallow, but that whole believability thing smacked me in the face again ...

LOL! We've always had a bored female roommate or NPG (non-player girlfriend) set aside for those situations. (Lovingly refered to as the "Lusty Beer-Wench")

edit: I left out "widows"

 

[CarlZog]

I'm 39 and I voted that the game is fine. In fact, I think it's doing better than ever -- largely because of the fact that the publishers have recognized the "maturing" of their audience.

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "more mature."

I started playing in 1978. At the time, I was at the youngest end of the spectrum of anticipated players. I had discovered Avalon Hill wargames a couple years earlier, then Metagaming before starting D&D. D&D wasn't particularly more complicated in its rules than other games I'd played, but the open-ended idea of world creation was astoudingly sophisticated. I also quickly fell in love with Runequest, Tekumel, and C&S.

Then came the early '80s. Look, anybody bemoaning the maturity of D&D has forgotten what life was like when TSR started hawking candy, cartoons and dolls. Suddenly, the game was expected to be accessible to six-year-olds and everything they produced reflected this. "The good old days", you say? Yeah, I remember them: They sucked.

Fortunately, D&D's position as pop culture fad didn't last long and slowly the game returned to its adult roots.

Today, thanks to the OGL, and an aging audience, there is a broader array of material available than ever before. You say the game's not mature enough? Well, I see just the opposite. Every week I read online threads about DMs confronting reasonably profound philosophical and moral issues in their games. I see players, DMs and publishers creating worlds and pursuing adventures where good and evil is more blurry than ever. I read accounts of players having in-game experiences that really teach them about themselves. And I'm buying d20 products that extend the boundaries of the game way beyond Saturday morning cartoons.

And, you want MORE mature? Brother, this is as mature as I need my fantasy to get. If anything, at this point, I'd welcome a slight shift in the other direction. (Woohoo, Spaceship Zero!)

Just one man's opinion,
zog

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Rules have very little to do with maturity.

The people playing and running the game determine maturity.

And to prove my point I am going to hold my breath until I turn blue!

The Auld Grump, over 40 by a few years...

 

[Hawkshere]

Irony thick enough to cut with a knife...

We didn't have computer games, so we came from background of reading fantasy novels and wargaming. It does often seem like there are a lot of groups who play the game as if it's a Computer based rpg; running from room to room, killing the baddies, taking loot, leveling up.

:\ People were playing D&D this way when TI invented the pocket calculator. Computer games stole that entire gameplay model right off of Gygax's plate. This isn't a chicken & egg conundrum here, we know which came first.

I just cannot understand this kind of thinking, which makes me wonder if folks pushing this kind of quackery have ever actually played a good PC or video game. Sturgeon's Law aside, it is my duty to inform you that there are "Computer based rpg" games that kick the everloving crap out of many cheap fantasy novels and even some people's table-top games.

Yep, I pity those poor 'vidiots' raised on dumbed-down PC games like Fallout or Knights of the Old Republic.