Getting into print.

[MEG Hal]

Well first, from what i've picked up in this industry from my short time here "vanity press" is a pretty strong insult. I'm assuming you're not insulting Hal, just generally assuming any situation where you pay someone else to publish your work as a vanity press. Just a word of caution about language choice in case you weren't aware of the strong negative connotations.

But from the other side of things you have to understand what Hal's doing. You're paying them to take care of things you don't/can't take care of yourself. That's what your paying for. You're also paying for their connections, and everyone knows that connections are what business is all about. Also, unlike normal situations they won't have recourse to your work... they won't own it.

Example: ME. I've got a great PDF, sold over 170 copies and is 45th alltime at RPGnow.com after 3weeks (and its a $10 PDF, very expensive product for that market) and I'm having problems getting distrubution to your FLGS. We (my wife and i) had a long talk about what we wanted to do and decided against Cover2Cover based upon our end goals. We only decided against it because we're insular self-reliant people who enjoy challenges. * The service MEG is providing is a valuable one, but not right for everyone.

The main difference is whether or not you want to be the publisher of your book or just the author. If you want to be the publisher you'd better come up with print run money, PR, distribution channels, web site, sell sheets, blah blah blah that comes along with it. If you just want to be an author, your right to your works are going to be hard to keep.

Its this problem that Cover 2 Cover takes care of. If MEG doesn't have what you'd like to do, you have to find that print money.

joe b.

*Translate as "we like the pain."

Thanks JB...also if what you need is a better print rate we can do that for you also, we currently have 5-6 small-mediem sized publishers that go through us for print runs simply because we are less expensive, so again we can help you in whatever size or format, up to and including distribution*. So if you end up just wanting a print quote, we can even do that for you. Look for our first imprint PR before GTS!

* the hardest part in getting your book sold is getting distributors/retailers to buy your stuff, they are for the most part slowing down on getting new publishers and working on existing ones first, so that is another selling point of one of our services.

Either way good luck to all, and all I can say is make me buy another bookshelf---I dare ya

 

[Tyrant]

I strongly advise people from going into d20 publishing unless they have copious amounts of time, money, and expertise to handle all the various aspects that running a publishing business requires. Running a business is an incredible amount of work that sucks time away from doing what most of us enjoy - creating and playing games. Besides, if you can sell a few manuscripts you've got the money for a print run if you want one AND you've got a name to draw your customers too as well.

Eric Price
http://www.dragonscalecounters.com

 

[Vaxalon]

Precisely my thoughts.

I don't have the time, money, or contacts to publish it myself.

I don't have much to trade to get it published aside from the value of the product itself. I'm trying to see if that's enough.

I want to make enough money to pay my artist enough that she will want to work with me again.

 

[2WS-Steve]

One note on the vanity press issue.

Vanity Presses get a bad rap in the regular book trade because they typically deserve it. They'll get your book printed but that's the easy part; getting it promoted and into stores is the hard part.

In the RPG industry the publishers offering this service are can get your book some promotion and into stores via their distribution connections. We don't have a lot of data yet on how well this works but it's probably not going to be as venal as it works out in the book publishing industry. One reason publishers offer this service is to promote their own brand by having a larger release schedule. This means they'll be more selective about what they take and provide more support for the products they release. Moreover, you get them to sell and promote your books at conventions which you probably can't justify doing yourself if you only have a couple of releases.

Also, while the practice is still young we do already have some examples. As far as I can tell Sword and Sorcery is essentially a "Vanity Press" for Necromancer Games and Malhavoc, but that's been a tremendous success for everyone involved it seems. Firefly Games released Monster Island with the help of Gold Rush Games and Mystic Eye Games has already released material from Ambient and Natural 20. It seems that in the tabletop games industry it works more like the way computer and video games work, where you have a larger publisher working with several relatively independent development houses; this could work out well for everyone involved. At any rate, it's a lot different than fiction vanity presses.

 

[Vaxalon]

That makes sense to me, Steve.

Again, I'm sorry I ever used the term.

I'm willing to be the "Development House". I've got the resources to go as far as layout.

 

[Vaxalon]

I want to thank all you folks for all your help. You've been great.

 

[JohnNephew]

Well first, from what i've picked up in this industry from my short time here "vanity press" is a pretty strong insult. I'm assuming you're not insulting Hal, just generally assuming any situation where you pay someone else to publish your work as a vanity press. Just a word of caution about language choice in case you weren't aware of the strong negative connotations.

FWIW, paying someone to publish your work is pretty much the definition of "vanity press."

To quote dictionary.com :

"vanity press
n.

A publisher that publishes a book at the expense of the author."

It has negative connotations because if a publisher is making their money from the author, not the reader, then one assumes they don't really care if what they publish is of any interest to readers or if it has any quality. The only quality that matters is measurement of the author's bank account. Doesn't matter to them if it sells or not.

One may also assume (fairly or not) that if you're paying someone to publish your work, it's because no one found it worth paying you to publish it.

Note that vanity press and self-publishing are not actually the same thing. Often the former gets thrown around as a pejorative description of the latter.

It's worth noting that many of the world's classics were originally self-published. Works that are truly groundbreaking often have trouble fitting into the plans and pigeon-holes of established publishers. It would not surprise me if some classics were in fact vanity press publications at first, in spite of the bad rap, though I don't know of any offhand.

For a vanity press in action, read about the book publisher in Umberto Eco's novel Foucault's Pendulum.

 

[JohnNephew]

Also, while the practice is still young we do already have some examples. As far as I can tell Sword and Sorcery is essentially a "Vanity Press" for Necromancer Games and Malhavoc, but that's been a tremendous success for everyone involved it seems.

I'm quite certain that this is not the case -- Necromancer and Malhavoc do not pay White Wolf to print and distribute their games; WW pays them for the right to do so. It's not at all a vanity press arrangement.

 

[Mystic Eye]

Well first, from what i've picked up in this industry from my short time here "vanity press" is a pretty strong insult. I'm assuming you're not insulting Hal, just generally assuming any situation where you pay someone else to publish your work as a vanity press. Just a word of caution about language choice in case you weren't aware of the strong negative connotations.

But from the other side of things you have to understand what Hal's doing. You're paying them to take care of things you don't/can't take care of yourself. That's what your paying for. You're also paying for their connections, and everyone knows that connections are what business is all about. Also, unlike normal situations they won't have recourse to your work... they won't own it.

Example: ME. I've got a great PDF, sold over 170 copies and is 45th alltime at RPGnow.com after 3weeks (and its a $10 PDF, very expensive product for that market) and I'm having problems getting distrubution to your FLGS. We (my wife and i) had a long talk about what we wanted to do and decided against Cover2Cover based upon our end goals. We only decided against it because we're insular self-reliant people who enjoy challenges. * The service MEG is providing is a valuable one, but not right for everyone.

The main difference is whether or not you want to be the publisher of your book or just the author. If you want to be the publisher you'd better come up with print run money, PR, distribution channels, web site, sell sheets, blah blah blah that comes along with it. If you just want to be an author, your right to your works are going to be hard to keep.

Its this problem that Cover 2 Cover takes care of. If MEG doesn't have what you'd like to do, you have to find that print money.

joe b.

*Translate as "we like the pain."

Good points Joe but just as a note, Hal did not write that post, I did! As amazing as it may seem Hal and I are not one!

Also, John Nephew is right, of course, but it is true that to call someone a vanity press is moslty taken as an insult.
Understand that what we are really looking for are imprints to place under the MEG banner in a variety of ways and we also offer ways for folks to take advantage of the connections we have worked towards over the last few years without the need to become an imprint as well.
Actually, most of what we have done with C2C is broker some really awesome printing deals. Essentially, we can get print rates that no start up or small presses could get due to the fact that between us and the others printing through us we are doing some 3-7 books a month.
So, we are not really doing what a "vanity press" would do but something a bit different.

 

[2WS-Steve]

I'm quite certain that this is not the case -- Necromancer and Malhavoc do not pay White Wolf to print and distribute their games; WW pays them for the right to do so. It's not at all a vanity press arrangement.

My mistake; I was under the impression that White Wolf was serving the dual function of putting the material in print and fulfillment house with Necromancer & Malhavoc paying out their own development and print costs. Is WW just doing fulfillment then?