Getting into the Points of Light mindset

[DEFCON 1]

I DMed a two-year campaign in the Nentir Vale that took the group through the Heroic Tier. I've since taken about 6 months off to recharge my batteries (and the DM seat was passed to one of the other players to run a short Eberron game), and I will reassume the seat in March to start our campaign off through the Paragon Tier.

As I've thought back over the first part of the Nentir campaign... I've realized that I don't believe I ever really used the 'points of light' ideal that the Vale was meant to set up. I think I basically fell back on my normal methods of running a location for adventure.

The whole premise of 'points of light' is that there were small pockets of civilization found amongst a whole heap of dangerous wilderness. However... I don't believe I ever really treated the "plains" of the Nentir Vale as actually dangerous. If the party ever went into the forests, or the hills, or the mountains, the rivers, the swamps etc... basically anything on the map that wasn't plain light green... the possibility of danger was real. But just travelling in the "open" areas of the map? Not really dangerous at all. And I wonder if I did myself a disservice in running things that way?

I understand why I did it... the whole premise of "wandering monster" attacks has become rather superfluous in 4E when a party has their entire arsenal of abilities at their disposal, and they know they'll usually get a chance to take an extended rest once they arrive at their destination anyway. So while a trip from Fallcrest to Winterhaven should be fraught with danger... slowing down the plot to have their caravan get attacked to represent that seems kind of useless (knowing full well that even if I did, they'd take the extended rest when they finally arrived in Winterhaven in preparation for the real adventure that would issue out from the town). And while I could create the occasional reason why they might not be able to take an extended rest... I couldn't go to that well too many time before it just looking a little stupid.

In some ways it's a problem of my own design... as my campaign was usually various modules I strung together, meaning that it wasn't the journey from the various towns the party started from that was "real"... it was whatever town was the focal point of the beginning of the adventure. But I do wonder that perhaps I made the transition between the towns/locations a bit too easy... making the Nentir Vale much more civilized and non-threatening (especially along the roads) like many of the Forgotten Realms lands used to be. I think I might want to try and reincorporate the 'points of light' ideal when I start back up... I'm just not sure if I'll be able to do it successfully, or if I'll just fall back into my old habits anyway.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I've also been trying to think of ways to address this issue. I don't run PoLland, but parts of my homebrew were built with a similar philosophy, and I've been struggling with it the whole time. 4e's design assumptions have pushed it to the forefront, however.

So far, the best thing I can come up with would involve adjusting the idea of "extended rest" to fit the pacing of the campaign better. Instead of an extended rest occurring every night, it only happens at the end of a "scene" or short arc. The problem, of course, lies in how do you decide when that is?

Trial and error is likely what I will do, but if you can match the timing of extended rest opportunities with the assumptions of the game, then it works, at least in theory. If the PCs are travelling between towns and it takes a week to do so on foot, then I would say they don't get to take another extended rest until they arrive at their destination. It's hard to get meaningful rest on the road and with the constant threat of monster attacks. Standing watch every night is stressful, and all that marching around in armour and gear is tiring. During a week's travel through threatening lands, 3-5 well-placed encounters could seem reasonable.

I have also been toying with the idea of adjusting the rate at which resources return. I was going to have hit points (and daily powers!) only come back by spending surges, and surges only coming back after an extended rest. So if you went through a lot of your powers in a given day, and got really beat up, you might not have enough healing surges to fully recover after an extended rest. It would make players think a little harder about spending their resources in glorious novas of damage. It also requires more fine-tuning.

Food for thought though.

 

[shadzar]

So are you saying that due to some mechanics in 4thm the PoL doesn't actually work with it in such that things end up being handwaved anyway due to some mechanic, and you feel that your approach somehow harmed your story?

Since you have passed the first hurdle, it may look a bit silly, but now you can make an excuse why people might be attacked or even not.

If they were attacked during heroic tier, then it was because they looked week, or everyone was attacked. Now that they are moving into paragon tier, they might not be attacked because the appear more threatening to the weaker attackers.

On the other hand, maybe things were in motion beyond the scope of worrying with petty heroic level characters that didn't have much to take, say for bandits, but going into paragon, maybe these bandits find the risk to reward ratio greater with the profit from such travelers.

Also things have been set in motion and maybe someone is seeking out the party for various reasons due to things done in the heroic tier, that would cause more interaction along the way.

If you can make it a part of the story, take something from a future adventure you plan to string on, you should be able to continue doing it without dropping back into easy travel mode.

Find some faction form the next adventure and work in a reason in advance the party might be targeted, as well others that are traveling, and set up that reason to have not just bandits, but other things in the previous area that would find not only the party, but other things as and of interest to engage with.

If you can overarch this into the BBEG from the end of the tier, or from the epic tier, then you will have a good reason that the players shouldn't question it except initially, and will accept it that as the story progressed, their actions actually caused change within the world. Not all changes are good, even if they lead to the desired results for the players.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

The biggest problem I have with PoL is that the classic large (population > 100k) fantasy city doesn't really fit, and it happens to be one of my favorite background locations. You really can't have a character who grew up as an anonymous street urchin who was forced into a band of juvenile thieves and beggars in a town of 1000 people.

 

[Ryujin]

The biggest problem I have with PoL is that the classic large (population > 100k) fantasy city doesn't really fit, and it happens to be one of my favorite background locations. You really can't have a character who grew up as an anonymous street urchin who was forced into a band of juvenile thieves and beggars in a town of 1000 people.

I see no reason why that sort of city couldn't exist. Quite the contrary, actually. A 'real' city would tend to be quite large, as it would be one of the few safe places for people to congregate. In LotR terms, for example, such a city would serve the function of a place like Gondor; protectors of the land. Other than one or two major cities, you would have a collection of walled and defended small towns.

An 'urchin' character wouldn't dare set foot outside the city walls, until he was pretty darned sure of himself.

Many of us have the tendency to hand-wave overland travel, for purposes of moving the game along. In a PoL campaign setting, this can't be done. Travelling between the town MUST represent significant danger. It could be as simple as roving bands of bandits and humanoid tribes, or a warlord (not Warlord) setting up a petty fiefdom along a major travel route.

 

[delericho]

Think post-apocalyptic.

In order for a Point of Light to exist, it will need to have a certain infrastructure in place - a food supply and water at the very least. Probably some sort of link to the next Point of Light, but this may well be patchy at best.

However, because the links to the outside world are unreliable, and because of the hostile nature of what's out there, Points of Light will have to be self-sufficient. One bad harvest (or a raid by bandits at a bad time) could wipe them out.

What that means is that you'll see a sharp boundary between 'civilisation' and 'the wild'. Up to the boundary of their fields, the people of the PoL will be very active in defending their holdings. Beyond that, there will be no law.

So, pretty much as soon as the PCs get within sight of the PoL, they should be being approached and challenged by patrols from the PoL. The actual skill level of these patrols will vary, of course, but they'll be equipped with the very best that the PoL has to offer.

The people of the PoL will most likely be extremely wary of travellers - especially since most people only travel in very large (and well-armed) groups. A small group of PCs alone? Suspicious.

So, they'll probably not be made terribly welcome, and certainly won't be trusted. Such things will be hard won. (Bear in mind also that gold may be of limited use in a PoL - food may well be the more valuable resource. A hired sword may be of yet more use still!)

Beyond the boundaries of civilisation, there should be almost nothing. Any buildings will be long since abandoned/ruined/infested. There should be the omni-present threat of attack, from bandits, orcs, or other menaces. (You may not want to keep hitting your players with such things, but the threat should always be there, especially if they tarry!) You may well want to resurrect the "wandering monster table", or something similar.

Of course, a PoL world will be fairly replete with ruins and dungeons for your use. However, one thing that I would definitely recommend would be to have many (if not most) dungeons have some sort of connection to "deeper ruins", so that there's no concept of cleaning out the dungeon - it can always be restocked with monsters from the teeming masses below the earth!

(Don't go overboard with this - you don't want your players giving up because it's too hopeless.)

Oh, and don't feel too bad about having the denizens of a PoL betray the PCs and turn them over to the local bandit leader/orc chief/insane cultist for sacrifice. Once.

 

[OnlineDM]

My home brew game is in what I think of as a Points of Light-esque setting, but I don't bombard my PCs with random attacks in the wilderness.

I interpret PoL as meaning that there are lots of wild, forgotten places out there where danger could be lurking - places where the DM can put a ruined tower, a haunted forest, etc. I DON'T interpret it as meaning that traveling along roads between towns will always be a harrowing experience. The PCs are well-trained and well-armed; petty bandits or raiders would steer clear of them once they're past the earliest levels.

I interpret it this way because I think 4e works best when battles are of narrative importance. If you have a ton of random encounters with goblin raiders on the road, the length of 4e combat means that it will take you multiple game sessions just to get from one town to another. When I run 4e, I hand-wave combat encounters that don't matter for the plot (unless the players are just itching to beat something up, in which case I might throw them a bone). If there's a battle, it matters.

 

[delericho]

Okay, having actually read the OP , a few concrete thoughts...

But just travelling in the "open" areas of the map? Not really dangerous at all. And I wonder if I did myself a disservice in running things that way?

Did you and your players enjoy the campaign? If so, then you're probably fine.

I understand why I did it... the whole premise of "wandering monster" attacks has become rather superfluous in 4E when a party has their entire arsenal of abilities at their disposal, and they know they'll usually get a chance to take an extended rest once they arrive at their destination anyway.

The Extended Rest can be something of a problem, since it does allow the PCs to refresh to 100% effectiveness. There are three ways to combat it: a single, big encounter that expends (almost) all their resources; a sequence of 'minor' encounters where they can't practically take an XRest between them (not so unrealistic - many predators are most active at night); or an otherwise 'minor' encounter with some sort of complication (the orcs attack the NPCs first, and the PCs need to keep them alive).

Of course, it's worth considering that maybe you don't really want to clutter up your game with lots of 'throwaway' encounters, especially if you're having issues with grind, or if you want to keep a cap on PC XP levels.

So maybe what you really want is just the threat of an encounter. If the PCs tarry in the wilderness, then they get attacked. The 'encounter' consists of the party coming across a looted and burned-out caravan. The PCs glimpse a dragon flying in the distance, but are able to go to ground before it sees them. Or whatever.

 

[Dausuul]

I see no reason why that sort of city couldn't exist. Quite the contrary, actually. A 'real' city would tend to be quite large, as it would be one of the few safe places for people to congregate. In LotR terms, for example, such a city would serve the function of a place like Gondor; protectors of the land. Other than one or two major cities, you would have a collection of walled and defended small towns.

Keeping the city fed would be a real challenge, though. Not impossible, but difficult; unless magic was involved, you would only see large cities in the most fertile regions, where the city could keep its farming "footprint" within the reach of its military patrols. And a bad harvest would be a real disaster.

In fact, that could be the basis for an adventure. The harvest has been very poor and the city faces starvation in a matter of months--find a way to feed the populace!

Some information on medieval agriculture as it relates to cities: http://www.history.ac.uk/resources/e-seminars/keene-paper

I interpret it this way because I think 4e works best when battles are of narrative importance. If you have a ton of random encounters with goblin raiders on the road, the length of 4e combat means that it will take you multiple game sessions just to get from one town to another. When I run 4e, I hand-wave combat encounters that don't matter for the plot (unless the players are just itching to beat something up, in which case I might throw them a bone). If there's a battle, it matters.

Actually, I've found you can do quite well with encounters on the road. The important thing is to put some thought into them and make them feel like a natural part of the setting. Don't just have a bunch of orcs attack the PCs with no warning; instead, have the PCs enter a orc-haunted region and encounter signs of orc marauders. Have them come across a small fortified town that's had to defend itself from orc attacks. Then, when you bust out the orc encounter, it won't feel random; it's part of the quest, a threat that must be overcome for the party to reach its destination.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I see no reason why that sort of city couldn't exist. Quite the contrary, actually. A 'real' city would tend to be quite large, as it would be one of the few safe places for people to congregate.

True, but the DM may not want a city that large in the vicinity of the starting point of the campaign. Picture the DM going whole hog on PoL. Now a player comes along and says "My character comes from a huge city." What is the DM to do? Accept that this Heroic Tier (probably level 1 or 2) character crossed an entire continent from that city 3000 miles away in spite of the tremendous dangers of the lands in between?

I'm not saying that there is no solution, just that some DMs won't be able to adapt their PoL vision very well to incorporate a huge city.