D&D 5E Getting rid of bad skill proficiencies

[Shiroiken]

Medicine is the only underutilized skill I've seen, and even that had a simple fix. I simply removed the Healer's Kit ability and made the Wis/Medicine check at disadvantage without a kit. I also don't allow Potions of Healing to be bought willy-nilly, so magical healing is greatly reduced. I replaced them with healing herbs that work the same, but take 1 minute to apply in order to keep the as an out of combat use.

 

[tetrasodium]

the thing about having the face & relevant skill change depending on who are are talking to makes a lot of sense Despite agreeing with all of the reasons why the two should be merged I'm going to be contrary on thieve's tools/slight of hand though & say they should be split differently after merging because they both represent an overly narrow niche that winds up being a lot like a stool missing a leg on their own & it has an impact on other areas like deception/persuade/etc covering areas they probably shouldn't. I'll get into more on why for each, but the split should be something like "wardsmithing" & "social engineering" representing skill with physical/arcane security & skill with a very specific specialized form of the social skills but suggest some of the videos linked up in this as primer for an amount of depth that just can't fit in a post.

Get rid of lockpicks because they are simplypointless. If the rogue fails at picking the lock, the next step is almost always someone speaks up to say "I have a crowbar" or "I hit it with my axe/mace/club" because a lock is only there to stop an honest person but generally has little impact on the person who intends to break through to rob & kill everyone present. Regardless of how you frame it or how evil "everyone present" is most adventuring pretty much boils down to just that at some point. Wardsmithing is a broader skill that covers dex (it's locked), int(that's warded with spells & needs someone to nullify/munge the runes without blowing us up!), wis (that's got a nasty physical trap built into the mechanism & will need to be disarmed without setting it off). Wardcraft covers all of them & gives the individual skilled in it the ability to glean some information from their skill in other areas such as noticing security & getting a vague feel for what a magic item does.

As to social engineering, think back to the before time when we had large gatherings & didn't obsessively wash our hands or cover half our faces. Back then you would see people you've never seen at work all the time & with the exception of certain high security areas rarely ever think twice when it was someone you didn't know & had never seen before. Social engineering is a mix of looking like you belong well enough to not get challenged & bullshitting your way through conversation in order to convince others that they should do things like give you a bag with 75,000usd & tell you to have a nice day... Yes, this is urban stealth but it doesn't always require you to be unseen.

 

[Oofta]

the thing about having the face & relevant skill change depending on who are are talking to makes a lot of sense Despite agreeing with all of the reasons why the two should be merged I'm going to be contrary on thieve's tools/slight of hand though & say they should be split differently after merging because they both represent an overly narrow niche that winds up being a lot like a stool missing a leg on their own & it has an impact on other areas like deception/persuade/etc covering areas they probably shouldn't. I'll get into more on why for each, but the split should be something like "wardsmithing" & "social engineering" representing skill with physical/arcane security & skill with a very specific specialized form of the social skills but suggest some of the videos linked up in this as primer for an amount of depth that just can't fit in a post.

Get rid of lockpicks because they are simplypointless. If the rogue fails at picking the lock, the next step is almost always someone speaks up to say "I have a crowbar" or "I hit it with my axe/mace/club" because a lock is only there to stop an honest person but generally has little impact on the person who intends to break through to rob & kill everyone present. Regardless of how you frame it or how evil "everyone present" is most adventuring pretty much boils down to just that at some point. Wardsmithing is a broader skill that covers dex (it's locked), int(that's warded with spells & needs someone to nullify/munge the runes without blowing us up!), wis (that's got a nasty physical trap built into the mechanism & will need to be disarmed without setting it off). Wardcraft covers all of them & gives the individual skilled in it the ability to glean some information from their skill in other areas such as noticing security & getting a vague feel for what a magic item does.

As to social engineering, think back to the before time when we had large gatherings & didn't obsessively wash our hands or cover half our faces. Back then you would see people you've never seen at work all the time & with the exception of certain high security areas rarely ever think twice when it was someone you didn't know & had never seen before. Social engineering is a mix of looking like you belong well enough to not get challenged & bullshitting your way through conversation in order to convince others that they should do things like give you a bag with 75,000usd & tell you to have a nice day... Yes, this is urban stealth but it doesn't always require you to be unseen.

If people are breaking down a door instead of picking a lock you have two things. First, an obviously broken door. But just as important, it's going to make noise, potentially a significant amount of noise. If all you're doing is the murder hobo dungeon crawl it may not change anything, it will normally make a significant difference in my games.

As far as the rest, you don't call for checks unless there's a reason to do so. What's your point?

 

[Ashrym]

Ever since I saw the merging of Thieves Tools proficiency with Sleight of Hand in Baldurs Gate 3, I've thought a lot about skills in 5e, their inconsistencies, and their wildly varying usefulness.
Here are some thoughts about problematic skills and how to improve their usefulness and logic.

But first, here's a tier list of skills I've taken from a survey (which can be argued about, the details aren't that important, it's just meant as a short overview):

Spoiler

S: Perception
A: Persuasion, Stealth
B: Athletics, Arcana, Investigation, Insight, Deception
C: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, History, Survival, Intimidation
D: Nature, Religion
F: Medicine, Animal Handling, Performance

Here are my thoughts/suggestions:

• Medicine only serves one tangible purpose (stabilizing someone "empty-handed" without healing spells and healing kit). I would convert it to a tool proficiency and make it necessary to use a healers kit. This tool proficiency would also cover the secondary function (examining wounds, identifying a disease). Casters with healing spells should also have free proficiency in medical examinations.
• Performance is not even important for bards, so I would drop it. Dancing, juggling and similar stuff should be governed by Acrobatics. Singing should be a musical instrument proficiency. A contest between two musicians should be charisma+instrument proficiency. No need for performance IMHO.
• Animal Handling is very situational. I believe riding should be associated with Acrobatics, while coaches ad carts should be a tool ("land vehicles"). Understanding animals should be tied to Nature.
• Acrobatics would be much more distinct from Athletics if dancing and riding would be added to it's portfolio. It would also be easier to understand for new players (all about balance).
• Survival and Nature are very much overlapping and should be merged. They should be tied to intelligence to make the stat more important.
• History should be renamed society and contain everything regarding the more or less civilized world. Borders, customs, titles, heraldry, laws, rules, where to find services in a large city, ....
• Deception and Intimidation should get wider uses to be competitive with persuasion. Failing an intimidation or deception check shouldn't always result in an angry or even hostile NPC. Instead, Deception should be used for all interactions with criminals, while intimidation should be used to parley with brutes and monsters. Persuasion should not be the best way to interact with angry Hobgoblins, they should be more receptive to tough statements and an intimidating posture. The party face should change depending on who you need to talk to!
• Sleight of Hand and Thieves Tools should be merged. TT are by far the most useful tool, making them a skill would be more consistent. Also, SoH is very weak now that it's not associated with traps and locks.

To sum it up, this would be my suggestion for a revised skill system:
STR - Athlectics
DEX - Acrobatics
DEX - Stealth
DEX - Sleight of Hand = Thieves Tools
INT - Society (History)
INT - Investigation
INT - Nature = Survival
INT - Arcana
INT - Religion
WIS - Perception
WIS - Insight
CHA - Persuasion
CHA - Deception
CHA - Intimidation

Healers kit would be a new tool proficiency.
Thieves tools and Sleight of Hand would be a skill primarily, but also a tool under certain circumstances (e.g. as spellcasting focus for an Artificer).

EDIT: As a side effect, the distinction between INT and WIS would be clearer - one is more about learned knowledge, the other is more about wits and instuition.
_____________________________

What are your thoughts? Could this system be used or would it cause problems?

I wouldn't bother making changes. Players who create a build with a theme in mind will take actions that use those skills. If players don't then they are extraneous at worst with zero impact at your table so removing them does not accomplish a whole lot.

Ever since medicine introduced things like corpse and blood spatter analysis I started using it a lot more.

If a skill isn't being used it's because the players and/DM are ignoring it. It's not because there aren't uses.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Here's my list. Not bothered by Thieves tools and sleight of hand being separate, but lots of other things do bother me.

• Strength – Athletics, Grappling
• Dexterity – Acrobatics, Sleight, Stealth
• Constitution – Endurance
• Intelligence – Arcana, Knowledge, Investigation, Medicine, Machinery, Tactics
• Wisdom – Bonding, Focus, Insight, Survival
• Charisma – Deception, Galvanizing, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion

There are three proficiency levels for skills and tools - Dabbler, Skilled, and Expert. This already exists in the core rules; this section just helps formalize it into a true system.

• Dabbler means you use 1/2 your proficiency bonus
• Skilled means you use your proficiency bonus as normal
• Expert means you use half-again your proficiency bonus (not double as in the core rules)

Skilled is gained normally by all characters while Expert and Dabbler are generally less common and granted through various feats and class features.
On your character sheet, use a horizontal line in the skill bubbles to denote dabble proficiency, a checkmark for skilled, and an x for expert.

New & Removed Skills​

Animal Handling (Removed)​

Rolled into the new skill Bonding, with some bonuses tied to feats or backgrounds

History & Religion (Removed)​

Combined into the new Knowledge skill.

Perception (Removed)​

Perception is now a passive score instead of a skill. Your perception score is equal to 10 + Proficiency bonus + Wisdom modifier.
Most uses of active perception are moved to Investigation, though Focus may also be used for others.

Endurance (New)​

Endurance is split off from Athletics for activities involving any active, long-term exertion of physical effort that are less about "bursts of strength" and more about combating fatigue.
Endurance checks may also be used for resisting the effects of torture or pushing beyond normal limits to continue fighting.

Focusing (New)​

Focusing is the mental analogue of Endurance. It may come into play in a variety of situations, but it is most commonly used with the revised Concentration rules, making it a very useful skill for all spellcasters.

Grappling (New)​

Grappling is separated from Athletics. It follows the same rules otherwise with soem expansion from homebrew content.

Knowledge (New)​

Holds all common forms of knowledge that individuals may acquire through normal formal academics or pursuit of hobbies, including history, politics, and religion. Skilleddenotes someone who has an above-average general education level as a result of spending time in a university setting or some equivalent activity.
Different backgrounds may provide advantage to specific types of knowledge checks.

Machinery (New)​

Governs all advanced knowledge of machinery and non-magical mechanics, generally including the latest scientific and mathematical principles and how they are applied to non-magical devices and constructs.

Bonding (New)​

Provide long-term care, raise/train animals and crops, provide mentorship to others. Sometimes used in conjunction with Medicine for helping others recover from illness and injuries.

Tactics (New)​

Tactics replaces the Hero Point system from the DMG using the original functionality of Inspiration. It allows you to situationally use your bonus action or reaction to adjust advantages between yourself or your opponent in combat based on battle precognition.
The DC for accomplishing this can vary substantially by context, and it can sometimes lead to contested skill checks, similar to Grappling, as you attempt to outmaneuver your opponent.

 

[Don Durito]

I recommend using background proficiencies at some point. Even if you don't like it - it's really good for seeing what skills you actually miss.

I think I would do something like this. - All of these skills are separate from ability scores - so we don't need acrobatics, because Dex(Athletics) covers it, and we don't need Endurance because Con(Athletics) covers it.

Athletics
Stealth
Thievery
Arcana
Nature (Includes survival)
Perception (Although I'd be tempted to make this universal)

You could also add some kind of interaction skills if you want but I find it's not really necessary.

Then for each of those skills the player adds some kind of background that qualifies it, so it would be something like:

Athletics (Trained soldier of the Crimson Legion)
Thievery (Grew up rough on the streets of Calimshan)

This gives you additional less core things you can use the skill for. So the player can now roll Intelligence (Thievery) to recall information about Calimshan, or Charisma (Athletics) to interact with other soldiers in a bar and try to get information from them.

In edge cases you might only allow a roll if a player has added an appropriate backgrond to their skill. E.g Dex(Athletics) might be rolled for anyone tryin to walk a narrow ledge but an actual tightrope might require something like (Athletics: Circus Acrobat) to attempt.

I'd also let players spend a skill proficiency to get an additional background but with the proviso that this cannot cover something that falls under the purview of a core skill.

 

[Don Durito]

If the DM just calls for an ability check and lets the player add whatever skill proficiency they think is relevant to the approach the player already described the character as attempting, there's really no issue in my view. The DM need only remember 6 things and the total number of skill or tool proficiencies is irrelevant.

That's the way it seems supposed to work - but the game is not that consistent - hardcoding skills into the game in a lot of places - Athletics for example for grappling.

This is why when I used background proficiencies it just seemed pointless at times. "Roll Strength" and the the player discusses what they can use for Athletics, which became after a time "Roll Strength plus whatever you use for Athletics".

 

[Tomice]

I never considered myself an extreme optimizer, but maybe I am? At least I can't imagine taking medicine or animal handling when many class/race combinations are limited to 4 skill proficiencies.
So yes, I understand that those skills do come up if someone happens to have them. But to choose them while not taking perception or stealth? Hard to imagine.

Note that I'm talking about the specific implementation in 5e. Medicine could be extremely relevant if non-magical healing was tied to it, and I'd love to see such a system.
But as things stand, it has little reliable benefit apart from saving a few silver on an easily obtainable piece of equipment.

 

[squibbles]

Ever since I saw the merging of Thieves Tools proficiency with Sleight of Hand in Baldurs Gate 3, I've thought a lot about skills in 5e, their inconsistencies, and their wildly varying usefulness.
Here are some thoughts about problematic skills and how to improve their usefulness and logic.

• Medicine only serves one tangible purpose (stabilizing someone "empty-handed" without healing spells and healing kit). I would convert it to a tool proficiency and make it necessary to use a healers kit. This tool proficiency would also cover the secondary function (examining wounds, identifying a disease). Casters with healing spells should also have free proficiency in medical examinations.
• Performance is not even important for bards, so I would drop it. Dancing, juggling and similar stuff should be governed by Acrobatics. Singing should be a musical instrument proficiency. A contest between two musicians should be charisma+instrument proficiency. No need for performance IMHO.
• Animal Handling is very situational. I believe riding should be associated with Acrobatics, while coaches ad carts should be a tool ("land vehicles"). Understanding animals should be tied to Nature.
• Acrobatics would be much more distinct from Athletics if dancing and riding would be added to it's portfolio. It would also be easier to understand for new players (all about balance).
• Survival and Nature are very much overlapping and should be merged. They should be tied to intelligence to make the stat more important.
• History should be renamed society and contain everything regarding the more or less civilized world. Borders, customs, titles, heraldry, laws, rules, where to find services in a large city, ....
• Deception and Intimidation should get wider uses to be competitive with persuasion. Failing an intimidation or deception check shouldn't always result in an angry or even hostile NPC. Instead, Deception should be used for all interactions with criminals, while intimidation should be used to parley with brutes and monsters. Persuasion should not be the best way to interact with angry Hobgoblins, they should be more receptive to tough statements and an intimidating posture. The party face should change depending on who you need to talk to!
• Sleight of Hand and Thieves Tools should be merged. TT are by far the most useful tool, making them a skill would be more consistent. Also, SoH is very weak now that it's not associated with traps and locks.

Healers kit would be a new tool proficiency.
Thieves tools and Sleight of Hand would be a skill primarily, but also a tool under certain circumstances (e.g. as spellcasting focus for an Artificer).

EDIT: As a side effect, the distinction between INT and WIS would be clearer - one is more about learned knowledge, the other is more about wits and instuition.

Creating compound skill/tool proficiencies for medicine/healing kit, performance/instrument, animal handling/land vehicles, and sleight of hand/thieves tools makes intuitive sense to me. There is a lot of conceptual overlap between these skills and tools that makes each one individually less useful. Granted, these skills and tools are not conceptually identical--but for a PC adventurer, it doesn't need to be possible to be good at sleight of hand but incapable of using thieves tools or vice versa. They may as well share one proficiency so that all stealy PCs are good at both.

Similarly, survival/nature and athletics/acrobatics are more or less the same skill but for different abilities, i.e. you use nature to determine what type of snake poisoned the duke but you use survival to suck out the venom if you have been bitten yourself--it's the same substantive area of knowledge/expertise being applied to different types of problems. My preference is to have one skill--e.g. athletics--and use strength with it when it's a muscle athletcs-y thing but dexterity when it's a balance athletics-y thing.

If combining proficiencies doesn't make them stronger than perception, persuasion, or stealth I don't think it'll break anything.

I would bring back the idea of knowledge as a particular category of proficiency, which Arcana, History, Medicine, Nature, and Religion would all belong.

I subsume history and religion into a knowledge skill, like the "lore" skill of some 3e CRPGs. History and religion are pretty similar areas of knowledge in most published settings, with timelines that include 20+ instances of "in year xxxx, god y did thing z".

 

[R_J_K75]

Oh I am aware of that, just many DMs new and veteran still have a strict adherence to RAW and don't like to deviate. A more 'official' call out to a fluid interpretation of intimidate could be made to enforce this.

I know there are parts of 5e that are RAW, etc but isnt the first section stating that everything in 5e is just a guideline and the DM should use what they want, change what they want, and throw out the rest. The whole premise of 5e was that some things were intentionally left vague.